Canadian parliament backs Kyoto ratification plan

[Asher]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Does this mean more Canadian jobs might come to the States? Y'know, businesses fleeing onerous new measures imposed on them to comply w/Kyoto?

Not necessarily the States, but so far we've already lost a couple thousand jobs in Alberta when some oil companies decided the uncertainty behind Kyoto was too big of a risk, and invested in Africa rather than Alberta.

And now that it's been ratified, much of the future Tarsands development has been put on indefinite hold.

All we're doing is reducing pollution coming from Canada and moving it to other nations, but too many people don't want to wake up and see that and really want to believe they're making the world a lot better for their children.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Asher

Not necessarily the States, but so far we've already lost a couple thousand jobs in Alberta when some oil companies decided the uncertainty behind Kyoto was too big of a risk, and invested in Africa rather than Alberta.

And now that it's been ratified, much of the future Tarsands development has been put on indefinite hold.

All we're doing is reducing pollution coming from Canada and moving it to other nations, but too many people don't want to wake up and see that and really want to believe they're making the world a lot better for their children.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

How in the world did the developing nations opt out of Kyoto's mandates? I believe this is why the US Senate voted 99-0 against Kyoto.

[notyoueither]

They didn't agree to abide by them?

100-NIL! on myself.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

http://www.ipsos-reid.com/media/act_hit_counter.cfm?id_to_view=1667&Region=cdn&PDF_name=mr021108-3tb.pdf

Thanks Asher for providing evidence showing the majority of Canadians support Kyoto.

The poll question:
As you may know, the Kyoto Protocol on climate change requires Canada to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases to 6 percent below what they were in 1990 over the next 10 years. This means that Canada
would have to reduce its current emissions by about 20 percent to meet its target. Based on what you have seen, read or heard, do you personally support or oppose implementing the Kyoto Protocol ?


Support Kyoto: 74 per cent
Oppose Kyoto: 19 per cent



The poll also shows that the anti-Kyoto groups are attracting a lot of confused people. About 25 per cent of the people who oppose ratification of Kyoto also support it.

Go figure.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Does this mean more Canadian jobs might come to the States? Y'know, businesses fleeing onerous new measures imposed on them to comply w/Kyoto?

Isn't it great. The companies that pollute a lot will move to the States. You better hope for lots of jobs because you'll need to finance the cost of cleaning up after these companies and the cost of paying for health care for illnesses caused by pollution.

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I bet they're more likely to go to China or India, nations with el cheapo labor costs, few environmental restrictions and, above all, aren't affected period by Kyoto.

No, it is much safer to operate in the states, particularly places that have gutted their environmental protection laws.

Going to China and India means putting up with corruption, uncertainty caused by fickle governments and so on.

The companies that need to use el cheapo labour left a long time ago.

[mrboo123]

Originally posted by Seeker
If only we could seperate the good reform ideas like recall from the rest of their crap.

You should not be doing something that the overwhelming majority of your constituents oppose, it really puts the lie to representative democracy.

Let's face it, 'write a letter to your MP' is a joke. We have an elected (kinda) dictatorship.

I agree with ever word you said, expect 'write a letter to your MP' he sends us a stuff to sing out to mail to him, but, its always pointless...

Originally posted by Tingkai

Support Kyoto: 74 per cent
Oppose Kyoto: 19 per cent

Eastern Basterd (if your bron in the west, I'll be damn!) that dosen't really count, because around 90% of the yes vote is eastern, and 80% for no is western!

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by 123john321
that dosen't really count, because around 90% of the yes vote is eastern, and 80% for no is western!

A majority of westerners support Kyoto, 58 per cent according to this poll.

[Asher]

Tingkai: The first page assumes there is no domestic plan.

The second page clearly shows more Canadians prefer a domestic plan over Kyoto, which is what Alberta proposed.

So you can quit your dancing and start thinking about it any time.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
A majority of westerners support Kyoto, 58 per cent according to this poll.

Support is 40% in Alberta if we assume there is no domestic plan alternative, 25% if we have a domestic alternative.

You're letting the environmentalists in BC push up your figure.

BTW: Are you ignoring my response to your "victory for democracy" comment because you know it's hardly a victory for democracy when Chretien orders his party to do things against constiuent's wishes?

[Ozz]

Once the Kyoto Protocol is in, then we can slap on the
Kyoto tariffs on all the non-signing backwards countries.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Tingkai: The first page assumes there is no domestic plan.

The second page clearly shows more Canadians prefer a domestic plan over Kyoto, which is what Alberta proposed.

Aren't you tired of always been wrong? This is the third or fourth time you have been wrong in the past couple of days.

Once again you distort information.

The second page does not "clearly" show any indication that Canadians prefer a domestic plan. The split is 49-43, but with a 3 per cent error margin, this could mean that 46 per cent oppose the domestic plan while 46 per cent support the idea. A tie.

So the results are so close on this particular question that the results are not clear.

What is clear is that a vast majority of Canadians support Kyoto and that support did not change between October and September.

So ratification was a clear victory for democracy.

[Seeker]

My beef was with the MP not representing her consituency, it seems the national support is unclear or something?

My view on Kyoto:

I think climate change is for real. It think the world should do something about it.

But I also think that Canada doesn't produce a big chunk of global emissions, and why start doing it if none of the really significant emitters are going to go along?

Brownie points?

[Jon Miller]

umm, you know that the pollution that Kyoto acts against is global, right?

what we (and th eother nations that don't ratify) do will effect you (in regards to greenhouse gasses)

Jon Miller

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Seeker
why start doing it if none of the really significant emitters are going to go along?

Brownie points?

Cause we can slap tariffs on emitters (unfair trade) and maybe get some trade going with the EU, as we won't be effected by Kyoto tariffs. (if we can delouse ourselves of GM that is)

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Aren't you tired of always been wrong? This is the third or fourth time you have been wrong in the past couple of days.

Once again you distort information.

The second page does not "clearly" show any indication that Canadians prefer a domestic plan. The split is 49-43, but with a 3 per cent error margin, this could mean that 46 per cent oppose the domestic plan while 46 per cent support the idea. A tie.

Still, Tingkai, the chances of both being off by 3 percent to the point of making it a tie is not very helpful.

You're subconciously doing this or you're intentionally doing it, either way I hope you know how obvious it is to anyone reading it.

Canadians prefer a domestic plan to Kyoto. Ratifying Kyoto due to King Jean's orders is not only not an example of democracy like you claim, but it also doesn't reflect the true will of the nation which want a domestic plan.

Don't even bother with your pathetic "what ifs" regarding margin of error making it a tie in some extremely unlikely circumstance.

So ratification was a clear victory for democracy.

Again...how does Chretien ordering his government to ratify it against their particular constituent's wishes establish a victory for democracy?

Further, when more people prefer a domestic plan to Kyoto, why is it a victory when Chretien pushes forward Kyoto in a hurried rush?

You're intentionally forgetting about or ignoring crucial pieces of information: The first page of the poll you keep blindly citing states that, in the absence of a made-in-Canada solution, most people would support Kyoto in Canada (although most oppose it in Alberta). But that's just not the case -- the 2nd poll is clearly more relevant, which says given the option of a domestic plan, Canadians would prefer a domestic plan to Kyoto.

If you'd stop ignoring that perhaps we could have a serious discussion. Or maybe you don't want to think that hard because it ruins your mental image of how much difference Kyoto is going to make?

As for your "always being wrong" comments -- give me a break. You're the one in here spouting off how Chretien's dictatorship is a victory for democracy and most people want Kyoto, when more people want a domestic plan than Kyoto.

It's all about ignoring what you don't like with you, isn't it?