Why terrorism against the US & the West

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Kofi Annon showed again today why the UN is really the league of nations.

According to article 8 of the last Iraq resolution, Iraq shall take NO attacks on allied forces enforcing UN resolutions.
Since Blix arrived, the Iraqis have been shooting at British and US planes, flying in the "no fly zone", a zone set up to PROTECT the Iraqi people from Saddam!

The US said, and quite rightly, this is a material breech, but Annon airily dismissed it, saying HE didn't think so, since no resolution specifically allowed the No-Fly zone.
Annon, appeazer to his last breath.

You know I heard that on several occasions UK & US planes have been order to pull out of the no fly zones when heavily armed Turkish jets have gone in and latter when our planes go back Kurdish villages are on fire.

With the assumption that the Turks are putting the boot in on the Kurds [again] and no doubt our compliance for the use of air bases how does this fit with your picture of us being beyond critism.

Sodom is a first rate murderer and we help to achieve that ranking.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by BlackStone
You know I heard that on several occasions UK & US planes have been order to pull out of the no fly zones when heavily armed Turkish jets have gone in and latter when our planes go back Kurdish villages are on fire.

I heard the world was flat once, I put as much stock in that as your little "occasions".
Maybe they wern't Turkish planes at all, but were really UFOs, out to test new weapon systems, that's just about as credible.

With the assumption that the Turks are putting the boot in on the Kurds [again] and no doubt our compliance for the use of air bases how does this fit with your picture of us being beyond critism.

Ah, another favorite tactic, when exactly did I say the US was above criticism.
If you used you reasoning powers, you could see how damn silly you look.

Sodom is a first rate murderer and we help to achieve that ranking.

That's Saddam, and I mentioned several posts earlier the US stupidly trusted him at one time, under the fool "enemy of my enemy is my friend" notion.

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Arrian


I happen to agree w/regard to support of despots. I think that is a major mistake we have been making for a long time (the concept of "our sonufa*****").

But there are problems with actively opposing dictatorship as well. Everytime we try it, there are those who step up and argue for something called "engagement." Those who favor engagement argue that the best way to promote democracy is to trade with, provide aid to, and otherwise avoid alienating the subject country. I am not sure of the best path myself, though I have been leaning more and more against the idea of "engagement" as a method of spreading democracy.

-Arrian

I think that engagement can be very powerful if we aim to promote and encourage good behaviour and moves towards even greater democracy. Unfortunately it ussually means we give the means to stay in power and the weapons to go from small time thug to mass murderer.

[Arrian]

I think that engagement can be very powerful if we aim to promote and encourage good behaviour and moves towards even greater democracy. Unfortunately it ussually means we give the means to stay in power and the weapons to go from small time thug to mass murderer.

Read that again. You essentially say that engagement usually provides thugs with the means to stay in power. That's the conclusion I'm seeing too. So I don't think that engagement is a "powerful tool."

-Arrian

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Let's give you some hints, one is filled with Cheese eating surrender monkees, the other likes Vodka and oderless gases.

"Cheese eating surrender monkees"




The hypocracy part was aimed at both our nations. I have watched our foreign secretary doing the same over the past months.

As for the weapons in the very same week that Sodom gassed Kurdish villages we [the UK governemnt] doubled his export credit with the us.

There was a race to see who could sell him the most weapons and we [US and UK] where at the top of the list. And I don`t like it anymore then you do.

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Chris 62
I heard the world was flat once, I put as much stock in that as your little "occasions".
Maybe they wern't Turkish planes at all, but were really UFOs, out to test new weapon systems, that's just about as credible.

The reports came from UK pilots serving in the no fly zone.

And i prefer to call him sodom.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by BlackStone




What Planet are you on. My country stood against Nazi Germany when everyone else in the world had gone silent. We stood against them alone while your country was still keeping itself neutral.

To turn round and say that we did something to the Jews when we fought against the Nazi`s is yet another example of ignorance, which goes nicely along with the remark that because the Jews have suffered that is why the Palestinians are being made to suffer, who is the apologist now.


Also I am not discounting what the European powers have done but you only need to look at the country who has the bases and troops on the ground to know why they single out the US.

Oh, but your country has had its dark, anti-semitic side too. I'm not just talking about the dire consequences of one war, but instead I'm talking about centuries of systematic persecution for which your country bears the blame as much as any other European nation. IIRC Henry VIII expelled the jews during his reign. One of the boats taking them away ran into a sand bar. The captain ordered the jews off the boat and onto the sand bar. As the tide came back in, covering the sand bar and freeing the ship, the captain sailed off without the jews. Leaving them to drown the captain is said to have taunted them with something to the effect that they should ask Moses to part the waters for them. IIRC that wasn't the first time your country did this. More recently, in the 19th century an English bishop came up with the "Christian Identity" movement, based on a warped idea that Christians, especially English Christians, were the true descendants of the tribes of Israel and that those who called themselves Jews were in fact imposters. Before you distance yourself from this bigoted English clergyman, let me remind you that the CofE is an established church and is legally under the control of your government.

So I'm not the one who is ignorant.

[Felch]

Originally posted by BlackStone
The reports came from UK pilots serving in the no fly zone.

I hate to be a ***** about such things, but when controversial evidence like that is cited, it's expected that people provide some documentation to back it up, from the BBC or some other trustworthy news source.

[GePap]

I love to see the blind argue tha blind: that is, people who have never been, or never know what it is like to be at the otehr side argue with people who are just the same.

Does anyone wonder why lybians, Syrians, and Iraqis are so undererpresented in Al Qaeda, or why the most pro-US state in the MIddle east after Israel is Iran?

Let me give you a clue: when someone comes at night to take a family member or close friend away, and the little stamp on the weapon that the guards aree using says 'made in the US', how dos that endear one to great all American values? Yes, Britain and France did much to create the modern Middle east, butt hat was 80 years ago. Most people in th Middle East are under 30: what do they care about 1920? they care about today. It is the US, not UK or France, that give Mubarak 2 billion dollar a year, and it is the US who has troop in Saudi Arabia to guard the house of Saud, and we are their biggest arms dealers by far. Yes, Iranians came to hate us for our support of the Shah, so why wuld things work any differently in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, the two biggest sources of anti-American terrorists?

Chris62:

It is documented that the US sold weapons to Iran. were we the main suppliers? NO. but we did give them weapons. Not large weapon systems, but still some arms. same for Iraq. I wonder why the US send Rummy to Baghdad in 1983 to reopen relations with Baghdad, if we were so terribly opposed to him? I know, because we weren't terribly opposed to him.


Of course islamist dislike the US way of life, as they do the way of life in the non-Islamist world. BUt why aren' they bombing Japan, or the Netherlands, or Brazil, or mexico, or spain, or China? Because none of thse states has much to do in the ME. This tells me then that simply thinking the other side immoral is not enough to get one oin the target list.

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Oh, but your country has had its dark, anti-semitic side too. I'm not just talking about the dire consequences of one war, but instead I'm talking about centuries of systematic persecution for which your country bears the blame as much as any other European nation. IIRC Henry VIII expelled the jews during his reign. One of the boats taking them away ran into a sand bar. The captain ordered the jews off the boat and onto the sand bar. As the tide came back in, covering the sand bar and freeing the ship, the captain sailed off without the jews. Leaving them to drown the captain is said to have taunted them with something to the effect that they should ask Moses to part the waters for them. IIRC that wasn't the first time your country did this. More recently, in the 19th century an English bishop came up with the "Christian Identity" movement, based on a warped idea that Christians, especially English Christians, were the true descendants of the tribes of Israel and that those who called themselves Jews were in fact imposters. Before you distance yourself from this bigoted English clergyman, let me remind you that the CofE is an established church and is legally under the control of your government.

So I'm not the one who is ignorant.

Tell me if we are going that far back where were your founding fathers from.


And which continent can around 70% of your population trace its roots back to.


Its a small world

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by GePap
I love to see the blind argue tha blind: that is, people who have never been, or never know what it is like to be at the otehr side argue with people who are just the same.

Well thank you very much

[Illyrien]

What in the world does it matter who made the weapons the "insert evil organisation" uses. It is the organisations, not the arms manufactors that is responsbile for its use

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Illyrien
What in the world does it matter who made the weapons the "insert evil organisation" uses. It is the organisations, not the arms manufactors that is responsbile for its use

I think the question is should we arm these regimes knowing what they will do.

And if we profit from them can we not expect to pay some of the price when the wrongs are righted.


Also I don`t think that we can see these sales as simple transactions. We are providing support to countries and regimes that suit our ambitions at the time. Or alternatively we are buying our freedom and wealth with others suffering.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BlackStone
Also I don`t think that we can see these sales as simple transactions. We are providing support to countries and regimes that suit our ambitions at the time. Or alternatively we are buying our freedom and wealth with others suffering.

Would you cut off trade with China?

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Would you cut off trade with China?

I would link trade with China to reform [mainly human rights].

I think were China is concerned the greatest worry is who they are selling weapons to not the other way round.