2 words about Russia

[Saras]

Sonic -

[BlackStone]

Sonic you are wasting your time with that one.

[Serb]

Exactly.
And btw I'm doing the same.

Serb you have always been weird but why are you supporting that bankrupt country of loosers.

bankrupt country of loosers?
Obviously you are David's Floyd DL.

i thought you lived in the US.

Me? To live in that contry of self-praising arrogant-ignorant bastards?
No way. I live in Russia.


edit: I forget to add smile.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sonic
Serb,

I thought you've already atmitted that you was wrong about Lithuania but it seems this is not the case. I am just too tired of saying that. All your arguments you've posted in the last post of second were nonsensial, since they all already were proven wrong by me, Saras and Herreson in other threads.
Blah..blah..blah... the same crap and nonsense..

All right. I'm really tired of you.
You denied facts for to long period of time and spreading to much lying bull**** about Russia.
Catch this:
"The ashes of an Estonian officer who commanded a unit of the Nazi Waffen-SS in the Second World War have been reburied in a ceremony in the Estonian capital, Tallinn.

The officer, Alfons Rebane, served in the Estonian army until Soviet troops occupied the country in 1940.

He joined the German army when it entered Estonia the following year.

The Estonian prime minister, Mart Laar, described Rebane as one of Estonia's most prominent soldiers and said the country had a duty to rebury the ashes, which were brought from Germany.

But political parties representing the ethnic Russian community have said the reburial amounts to a support of fascism."
Nazi called a hero by prime minister. Fine.
Want more?
"This is only one of many example of resurgence of nazism in the Baltics. Last year SS veterans freely marched in Latvia, while a similar march by Russian W.W.II veterans was brutally suppressed by Latvian police, who used tear gas and sticks on 80-year-old men and women. This is not even about Russians living in the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, who are being treated like second-rate residents and are being denied the most basic human rights by the governments which want to become an integrated part of European society. This is only about government-supported neo-nazism, which is now being battled by the only true enemy of fascism - Russia. "
More?
"The problem of resurgence of fascism, of course, is not limited only to Estonia, it also propagates down to Latvia and Lithuania. Both countries actively supported marches, meetings and other public activities of former Waffen SS members and other extremists, while suppressing the human and civil rights of ethnic minorities, such as Russian, Ukrainian and others."
Some more?
"SS War Veterans Rally in Estonia

"July, 1998. Some 1,500 Estonian war veterans, mostly SS men but also survivors of the 1918-20 war of independence from tsarist Russia, gathered for their annual reunion in Tallinn on 11 July. However, unlike the reunion of Latvian SS Legion members in March, no government officials or army officers participated, and the rally took place without incident and without international protests. While critics said it was inappropriate to celebrate the activities of men who fought on the side of a nation which murdered millions of Jews, the organizers of the event emphasized that the participants had fought, unsuccessfully, in order to prevent the Soviets from taking over their country, and not for the Nazis. "
Oh they fought for freedom? FINE, what about this?
"Well, that's refreshing: "legal" nazis march in Europe and there are no international protests, because they... fought the Russians, or did they? The vast majority of Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian SS troopers volunteered to serve well before there was even a hint of a Russian return to the Baltics. Think about this: when these people said they want to serve their Fuhrer by joining the ranks of the glorious Waffen SS, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were under complete German occupation with no Soviets in sight. Sure, they tried to prevent Soviets from taking over years later, but this was a part of German agenda and it certainly had nothing to do with "liberating" their homeland. Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian governments felt quite at home under Nazi occupation."
This?
""President Lennart Meri has ordered Interior Minister Olari Taalan to launch an investigation into the printing in Estonia of neo-Nazi newspapers, ETA reported on 14 June. According to a Swedish television report the previous day, Printall has repeatedly printed various neo-Nazi publications ordered from Sweden. The printing house, which is 100 percent privatized, has acknowledged that some issues of two extremist newspapers were published in early 1997, but it pointed out that since none of its staff speaks Swedish, the company was unaware of the newspapers' contents. Meri has requested that the investigators identify who in Sweden financed the printing of the newspapers."

(source: Institute of Baltic Studies, 06-15-99)

So, what happened next? What happened next was the only thing that could have happened when such an investigation was launched by pro-fascist government: nothing happened. In 1993 the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", an infamous antisemitic tome, was freely published in Estonia. It was later banned, but the lazy investigation, launched by the government, predictably, produced no results. The investigation was launched and quietly faded away, along with any foreign interest for the incident. And yet another failed investigation, this time in Lithuania in 1997:"

How about this?
"KUBILIUS DEPLORES THE CURRY FAVOURING WITH LITHUANIAN NEO-NAZIS

"Seimas First Deputy Chairman Andrius Kubilius is concerned about the activities of the newly-founded Lithuanian National Socialist Unity movement headed by Mindaugas Murza, the daily Lietuvos Rytas reports. Kubilius has approached the State Security Department Director Jurgis Jurgelis and Prosecutor General Kazys Pednycia with a request to determine whether Murza's and his colleagues' actions have a criminal aspect. The Seimas official illustrates his allegations with the excerpts from the neo-Nazi mouthpiece Nacijos Balsas (the Nation's Voice), where Russians, Poles, and Jews are described as "especially dangerous minorities." In his written appeal, Kubilius also denounces an opinion voiced by the security chief that "such people as Murza are not criminals alike racketeers, burglars, or thieves. "These people belong to a different trend and we have to find a way to communicate with them on the normal basis," Jurgelis said earlier. According to Kubilius, such indulgence could prompt yet more impertinent neo-Nazi behaviour."

(source: ELTA Lithuanian News Agency, 08-26-97)"
No nazi organisation? Who are those then?
"Not only the governments of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have no interest in exposing and prosecuting thousands of unknown neo-nazi criminals, they actually apply maximum effort to hinder prosecution of those Nazi criminals that are quite well known:

LITHUANIA DENIES DELAYING PROSECUTION OF SUSPECTED WAR CRIMINAL.

"The government on 22 August released a statement denying that it has procrastinated over the prosecution of suspected Nazi collaborator Aleksandras Lileikis, BNS reported. The statement came in response to recent accusations by the Wiesenthal Center, an Israeli-based Nazi-hunting organization. It stressed that the only obstacle to the 89-year-old Lileikis's trial are legal provisions that prohibit a defendant from undergoing interrogation if such a process would endanger his or her life. It added that the government is drafting amendments that would allow prosecution of suspected war criminals regardless of their state of health. The government also rejected the Wiesenthal Center's accusations that Vilnius is staging a September meeting to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the death of the Jewish sage Gaon Elijah of Vilnius in order to "compensate" for lack of progress in the Lileikis case."

(source: Institute for Baltic Studies, 08-25-97)

There were hundreds of complaints, petitions, proposals directed to the governments of the three Baltic states, calling for decisive actions against neo-nazis operating within the political structures of these countries, but all complaints, like the one below, fell on deaf ears:

LITHUANIAN OFFICIAL EXPRESSES CONCERN OVER NEO-NAZIS.

"First Deputy Speaker Andrius Kubilius has sent a letter to the national security department and the Prosecutor-General's Office asking them to determine whether the activities of a local neo-Nazi organization can be considered criminal, ITAR-TASS reported on 25 August. Kubilius said the Union for National and Social Unity of Lithuania (UNCUL) has published articles in its own publication that "encourage ethnic strife." He argued that those articles provide evidence that the UNCUL engages in "anti-constitutional activities aimed at igniting hatred toward non-indigenous people living in Lithuania." The UNCUL has some 400 members, most of whom are between 20 and 30 years old."

(source: Institute for Baltic Studies, 08-25-97)"
Epilog for you:
"The few quotes above are just a tip of the iceberg: problems of neo-nazism in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are deep-rooted and fed by indifferent and power-hungry foreigners, by internal popular discontent with low standards of living, by pro-fascist forces within the governments of the Baltic trio. "

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/bbc003.htm

P.S. This is only beggining. Stay tuned.

[Serb]

Part II.
Russian minority have fine life in Baltic states, everything is perfect, Serb is just a lair?
What about this?

"

05.10.2001

On October 5, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Igor Ivanov met with OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities Rolf Ekeus, on his first visit to Russia.

During the talk, the head of the Russian foreign affairs agency stressed the necessity of enhancing the OSCE's role in dealing with the intricate set of problems of national minorities in various European countries, primarily the CIS and the Baltic states .

In this context the Russian side expressed concern over the humanitarian situation in Latvia and Estonia, which, as was noted, despite some positive changes, remains unsatisfactory: as before, rights of the Russian-speaking population are being infringed, the policy of assimilating nontitular nations is being pursued, hundreds of thousands of inhabitants do not have citizenship and are deprived of political and socioeconomic rights. It also drew the High Commissioner's attention to negative tendencies in some CIS countries, whose authorities are pursuing a course for squeezing the Russian language out from important spheres of life, creating artificial barriers to the participation of the Russian-speaking population in the life of society.

Once again about civil rights just for you"

Question: Could you briefly formulate the main purposes and tasks of the Russian foreign policy for the protection of the rights of the compatriots in the Baltic states ?

Answer: Our national- state interests in this sphere are reflected in the Foreign Policy Concept of the Russian Federation, approved by the President this year. In broad outline, the immediate goals of this policy are as follows: acceleration of the process of naturalization in Latvia and Estonia, granting to all the inhabitants of Latvia and Estonia of a right to citizenship by birth and a right of family reunion, preservation of the possibility to get a secondary and higher education in the Russian language, participation of noncitizens at least in the elections to local bodies, cessation of the oppression of Orthodox believers and the interference of Estonian authorities in the affairs of the Estonian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchy, and the ratification by Latvia and Estonia of the fundamental international human rights covenants and conventions.

Question: What is the Russian diaspora in the Baltic states ?

Answer: Take Latvia. Of its 2.4 million inhabitants, over 700,000 are ethnic Russians, almost 30 percent of the population. Most of them are "noncitizens." In Estonia Russians and Russian speakers, i.e. "stateless persons," number 220,000 in a population of around 1.3 million.

Question: In what specifically does discrimination against the Russian-speaking population show, in your opinion?

Answer: In Latvia and Estonia the problem of citizenship remains the main issue. In both countries the rights of the nontitular population are being violated in the fields of language, education, employment and in the social sphere. This is done to create conditions in this way for the further squeezing out of Russians and Russian speakers from these countries. In both Latvia and Estonia the pace of naturalization is extremely low and tends to slow down. During 1998, 9,969 persons became naturalized citizens of Estonia; only 4,534 in 1999, and a mere 3,425 in 2000.

A difficult situation has developed with the Russian language, which is native for 40 percent of the population of Latvia, but has no legal status. The State Language Law has declared it foreign and envisages the use solely of the Latvian language in the sphere of labor and public information and when applying to any state agency. The implementation of the Latvian Education Law, which came into force in June 1999, is also directed to ousting the Russian language from the education system. The situation is no better in Estonia.

We agree with the thesis about the need to develop the Latvian and Estonian cultures, the Latvian and Estonian languages. But this must not be done to the detriment of the Russian-speaking population. No one may be allowed to stage a "selection" of international human rights and freedoms depending on the cover of a passport, on nationality grounds.

Baltic sates are democratic countries, are countries of personal freedom and freedom of religion, not fascist regimes?
Then what about this?

In Estonia authorities have again refused to register the Statute of the Estonian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchy, resumed the attempts to dispute the legal status of former workers of the KGB of the Estonian SSR, decided to establish new language restrictions in the private sector and are launching new trials of war veterans.

The governments of Baltic states don't chase resistance fighters, anti-fascists and people who fought vs. nazism during WW2?
What about this?

In the mainstream of the concept being advanced by Latvian authorities of the 1940-1941 "occupation" of Latvia and necessity to "eliminate its consequences" the Prosecutor General's Office in 1999 initiated a series of trials against war veterans and former workers of law enforcement bodies of the Soviet period on charges of "war crimes." An example of this policy is the prosecution in Latvia of antifascist partisan Vasily Kononov on the basis of an article introduced into Latvian legislation in 1994.

Source: http://www.norway.mid.ru/norway/news...tates-eng.html

Your government throw in jails people who fought vs. nazi.
Great, keep up the good work. NO ONE, NONE COUNTRY OF THE WORLD NEVER THROW ANTI-FASCISTS IN JAILS.

You want more?

Stay tuned.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Serb
Me? To live in that contry of self-praising arrogant-ignorant bastards?

Serb! I live in this country, and it is quite entertaining. Imagine being surrounded by Dinodoc and gang all day and all night, and add a touch of religious fanatacism and you basically get the essence of the right side of the country! It's most entertaining.

Although (believe it or not) there are some people in this country who aren't ignorant, arrogant, or self praising. However they are a minority in this country unfortunately and are being increasingly shot down now under the offensive term of "liberal".

Anyway, continue battling these Lithuanians and Americans who continuously refuse to accept the truth. Although IMO, you are speaking to a rock. Or rocks as it may be.

[Serb]

Tass, I'm not blind US hater. I don't saying that USA I'm sure people here are generally nice people. I could be disagreed with policy of USA government, but it doesn't mean I hate everything American or American people. I said "a contry of self-praising arrogant-ignorant bastards" only to adequate reply this statement about Russia- "bankrupt country of loosers".
Later I added this smile "" to show that I wasn't not completly serious. I hope person who said this line about Russia wasn't serious too, but actually I doubt it.

[Serb]

Hey mr. "Baltic states are true example of freedom", are you still here?
What about this?
You still deny that anti-fascists are thrown in jails in Baltic states?

ANOTHER INHUMANE ACTION OF THE LATVIAN AUTHORITIES HAS AGAIN ATTRACTED ATTENTION TO THE LAWLESSNESS PERPETRATED IN THAT COUNTRY WITH REGARD TO VETERANS OF WAR AND OF THE LAW-ENFORCEMENT BODIES OF THE FORMER USSR

Another inhumane action of the Latvian authorities has again attracted attention to the lawlessness perpetrated in that country with regard to veterans of war and of the law-enforcement bodies of the former USSR. On May 17 a helpless 84-year-old man, Mikhail Farbtukh, was arrested by Latvian police in his home and carried on a stretcher to jail to serve a 5-year sentence.

Latvian citizen Mikhail Farbtukh was sentenced, grandiloquently, for "genocide of the Latvian people". Actually as seen from the indictment, he took part in 1940-1941 in an investigation of the cases of former employees of repressive bodies of the Ulmanis fascist regime. Mikhail Farbtukh's active participation in fighting Nazism and its accomplices during the Second World War was cited at the trial as an aggravating circumstance. The veteran's military decorations were included in the materials of the case as proof of this.

The political aspect of the issue is clear: we are dealing with an attempt at historical revenge, at taking out historical grievances on common people. This biased approach accounts for the severity of the sentence: for a sick man incapable of taking care of himself five years in prison amounts to a death sentence.

It is significant that in this case the standards of the European Union whereby law courts unconditionally take into account old age and poor health of the accused have been ignored by the Latvian authorities. That the case of Mikhail Farbtukh, and similar cases, are untenable from the legal point of view is obvious. The veteran has been indicted for deeds of more than half a century ago when they were not considered and could not be considered criminal under the laws of the country in which he lived. This violates one of the key principles of international law enshrined, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Pact on Civil and Political Rights.

An end must be put to the lawlessness with a distinct Nazi flavor being perpetrated by Latvian authorities with regard to old and ailing people. Other countries which have assumed obligations under corresponding international documents have the right to demand this from Latvia.

And you dare to say that Russia is fascist state?
It is yours governments who praise nazi as heroes, throw anti-fascists in jails and create monuments dedicated to SS veterans.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
China, Russia, and US are the true "Axis of Evil".

I would have to disagree. It is Tibet, Lithuania, and Comoros.

[Saras]

Serb, can you please answer why Russia does not extradite people responsible for January 13, 1991 killings in Vilnius to stand trial in Lithuania? These people are alive, not some crappy ashes of an SS loonie.

--"Anyway, continue battling these Lithuanians <...> who continuously refuse to accept the truth. "

Hey moron, can you back that "truth" part with facts and analysis?

[Saras]

Geez, there's too much BS for me to handle during office hours...

Anyway, I'll cherry-pick:

It is unfair to call SS soldiers from Baltic States Nazis. Technically speaking, you have to be a member of the NSDAP to be a Nazi, but whatever… Most of these young people thought they were joining the liberators of their homeland. They were, of course, in for a nasty surprise later in the war, but the fact of serving in SS does not AUTOMATICALLY make you a war criminal.

Serb, can you please stop drochit on the issue of crackpot nazi groups (who are like 0.00005% of our population) and paint them as national policy? Geez, I mean, look at your far-righters and far-lefters... Alksnis, the bastard, is in the freaking Duma

Re: the saintly creatures known as anti-fascists - while I believe they did a great job at fighting the Nazis, that does not give them immunity from persecution for other crimes. If they joined a butchering secret police force of a criminal state and committed crimes against humanity, they should be tried in a court of law (same as with SS officers from Auschwitz - no one cares if they were nice and charitable in Germany and loved clay gnomes on their well-done lawn). On the other hand, if you don't trust the due proces of law in the Baltics, you should shut up, look at your own judicial branch, and weep your eyes out.

Russian language - I deny any accusations against Lithuania as baseless. Case closed.

Latvia and Estonia, IMO, have all the rights to require its citizens to use the state language in official documents, especially bearing in mind the international laws governing "Settling of occupied territories".

--“The problem of resurgence of fascism, of course, is not limited only to Estonia, it also propagates down to Latvia and Lithuania. Both countries actively supported marches, meetings and other public activities of former Waffen SS members and other extremists, while suppressing the human and civil rights of ethnic minorities, such as Russian, Ukrainian and others”

Not true for Lithuania. Period. Dunno about Latvia.

And you drag out Murza to back your claims? Ha ha ha ha! Man, you’re soooo lost

[Sonic]

Serb, yes I am still here.

Saras is right. Not only people responsible for January 13th killings aren't given up, but also people responsible for Medininkai killings. You BTW didn't commented my post about the discrimination of Lithuanian minority in Sovetsk. So you've admitted it?

Also, I am having to notify you again that I am not living in some Federation of the Baltic States, but in Lithuanian Republic. You seem to be forgetting taht all the time, especially in one of your posts, which had nothing to do with Lithuania (that word wasn't even metioned) and bellow this line was written:

"Your government throw in jails people who fought vs. nazi"

My government? Lithuania wasn't even mentioned there. You wouldn't like if I'd blame Russia for politics of North Korea.

The only post which had something against Lithuania was your second post, so I will comment it.

Mindaugas Murza and his party (Lithuanian Nationalsocialist Unity) is a complete joke. I wouldn't even call it fascist, probably anarchist would be better word to describe it. Murza himself is like 20 years old and he only completed 8 grades of education. Nobody or almost nobody supports him. When one of his party members, Jaroslavas Banevièius, tried to candidate to president (he was officially independent, since Murza's party is banned), he didn't even got required 20000 signatures to become a candidate. While in Russia people like Zhirinovski are not only candidating but also getting like 5% of votes, which is quite high for radical politicians.

Newspaper "Nacijos Balsas" is currently also banned (which is wrong in my opinion from the standpoint of free speech). BTW, in Lithuania even marxist newspapers are allowed, such as "Opozicija" (Opposition), where there are poems about Lenin and various pro-Russian articles. In a true democracy everything should be allowed (I do obviously mean all the political ideas, not actually everything).

Yes, nazis are being trailed in Lithuania. Lileikis also was and he died in court process by the way. He was very old and handicapped, I doubt he even understood or remembered what he have done in his last years. But he was trailed however, like all the other criminals of fascist regime.

[Saras]

Augi, eisi alawz uz NATO pagert?

[Heresson]

Re: Re: 2 words about Russia

Originally posted by Serb

(If it comes from Heresson, one should read- two peices of anti-Russian bull****)

These are facts...
You introduced these laws, didn't You?
I think your problem is that You try to defend every movement of your gouverment. To be a good Russian,
You don't have to support every move of your gouverment. In fact, sometimes You should oppose it.

Oh, and you think after last events we should done nothing? We are in war over terrorism. This law is addition to codex of laws of Russian Federation and it called "the law about counter-actions vs. religious, nationalistic and other forms of extremism and terrorism" (or something like this).
I see nothing wrong that our laws are modifed for current conditions, because we faced new threats now. Why our media should used as propagandistic tribune for people who consider terrorism as right thing?

Because there is no obvious definition of terrorism.
And sometimes, though terrorism is a bad thing, obviously, it fights in its monsterous way - in the good cause. I think that independance of Tchechenia is a good cause.

The official language of Russian Federation is Russian. It is said in our constitution. And Russian language is based on Cyrilica.
It doesn't violates ANY cultural separatity of Russian states and national republics, BECAUSE alphabets of ALL OF THEM was ALWAYS based on cyrilica. If you don't know Tatarstan didn't have its own alphabet and writing when it was attached to Russia about 500 years ago.

Ekhem, it had - even if Tatar language wasn't official.
It was either Arabic or perhaps Mongolic one (based on Aramaic).

Russians created alphabet based on cyrilica for them.

Oh, how good were You to them?
You simply wanted to ruthenise them.

To your knowledge previous name of Tatarstan is Golden Horde. They are the guys who occupated Russia for 300 years and then were owerthrown, defeated and conquered. Now they made an attempt to change their alphabet (which existed for 5 centuries) on new one based on latin letters. This is the violation.

The history of Tatars is nothing important here.
Their nation has the right to choose the way they write down their alphabet.

So, new law was created and accepted by absolutely majority of parlaiment members.
You think a state could be governed efficiently if people of this state wouln't have one language for communication with each other?
After all, we are RUSSIAN FEDERATION, not LATIN FEDERATION.

Phi. You are fighting with balloons, Serb.
I don't write that Russian shouldn't be (though it shouldn't, but that's another problem)
the official language of Russian "federation".
You have "one language for communication with each other" - Russian. If so, why do You need to write Tatar language in cyrylica if no-one except for Tatars understands it anyway?

[Sonic]

Originally posted by Saras
Augi, eisi alawz uz NATO pagert?

NATO ir be alawz pas mus ateis .