Well, i'll be...

[Az]

i see no reason why the aarbs would be less likely to damn everyone and destroy Israel

well, there is a question of will, and there is a question of ability.

[Mr. President]

If I say this everyon'e gonna track me down and kick me in the head for being politically incorrect, but: a world population of three billion would face a much more comfortable life in terms of resources. Six billion is straining the planet. Twenty billion, as humanity will number in fifty years, is inviting calamity. Many food and water populations are related directly to overpopulation, and more specifically people's unwillingness to slow population growth.

But there's still a one in a hundred-and-something-thousand that that asteroid will hit in sixteen years, and the point will be irrelevant.

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Eli
The 500 settlers among 130,000 Arabs in Hebron are no different from the 5mil Israelis among 1bil Muslims.

True, neither have a right to be there.

[Eli]

Right now you have 5.5 million Jews, and about 4.5 to 5 million arabs

The situation today is much closer. A 52:48 ratio if i'm not mistaken.

[mrmitchell]

At the risk of entering this hotbed of debate, I add my tidbit of information:

Originally posted by GePap
A ten-fold reduction in human numbers would entail the death of several billion human beings. Do they forcast some sort of apocalypse coming around that time? The UN population estimates I have seen have some high and low estimates of growth, with the slow putting earths population at around 7-8 billion and high around 12. by 2050

I read in Wired infoporn a while back (cant find the exact issue, dernded ) that the world pop would max out at 9 bil or around at about 2050, (right on target with your readings, ) and...

But that means that most rich nations loose people, while area like Arab states gain.

the US will be the only developed nation in the world whose birth rates do not significantly fall. (Europe will become a place full of old farts as its birthrates virtually collapse.) Basically, it said as technology spreads, birthrates fall. (Which means, whichever nation has the most technology (isreal has more than most of the Arab world I think) will have their population peak or significantly slow growth.

-mrmitchell

[Kropotkin]

I see that GePapa-Doc is growing more and more disillusioned about the ME-threads. Welcome to the club

[OldWarrior_42]

At least I have the sense to look at the entire historical record. It isn't pretty, but it sure as hell helps to get a better picture. But I am sorry if I unfortunitelly have brought up something so terrible as facts into the mix.

Just wanted to point out that if you really feel you have committed to bringing the "facts" to the discussion.... you need to go back a little more than just 54 years of history. You are not looking at the entire historical record as it clearly goes back centuries before Israel ever became a nation.

Just wanted to point out that there are more than one or two sides to a story, and there are long underlying reasons for the problems faced in this region today.

Back to your regularly scheduled program. :-P~~

[Kropotkin]

Oh come on! This idea that what happened centuries ago has much to do with the current situation is clearly overrated. I agree that there's good reasons to go back more than 54 years, something like 100-150 might be in place. Taking the exodus of 70 AD is pretty much to accept one side of the story as correct. In my opinion what happend 2000 years ago mean very little besides to justify the actions by one or the other side.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
Yes, you Felch X and Oerdin are right! The 650 Jews killed in the last 2 years, plsu the 800 odd killed by terrorism in the previous 50 show how evil the Arabs are.

First of Gepap you need to switch to decafe coffee or something because when ever anyone says something you don't like you jump off the deep end and try to pretend they said something they didn't.

If you reread my previous post you will see that you stated the average Isreali thinks the average arab wishes to do him harm and I implied that it is understandable that Mr. Joe Blow Isreali feels that way. It is not correct but it is understandable.

In the future if you have questions about one of my posts then I invite you to ask me to elaborate; this is generally considered a more mature course of action instead of blowing up and trying to put words in someone's mouth. People will tell you what their opinions are instead of you telling them what their opinions are. BTW I would appriate you editing out the personal insults from your previous post.

[Panag]

hi ,

you know something guys , the biggest problem to any peace deal , (yes you are reading correct ) is the interference by people from other countries who dont have a clue to what is going on , ..... until they are faced with terrorism , and even then , a terrorist remains a terrorist , but because you are an expert at lets say the IRA , it does not make you an expert at hamas , ....

unless we start to kivk out the people who have nothing to do with us , we shall have no peace , ......

that is one thing you can take to the bank , ......

the second thing is that people and countries have to stop to givce money that in the ned is used against themselfs and us (citizens of Israel regardless of race religion , etc , ...)

ones those things are achieved , well peace is only a Q of time , and it can then be achieved within a very short time frame !

have a nice day

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by panag
you know something guys , the biggest problem to any peace deal , (yes you are reading correct ) is the interference by people from other countries who dont have a clue to what is going on

You mean people like Siro and Eli, eh?

[GePap]

Oerdin

I admit I blew, fine, but i still think you have a one sided view, and here's why: I agree that the average Israeli has no reason to trust Arabs and think they hate him, so what about the average Arab? What has the state of israel done to endear itself to them? You got the Refugees, you gt those who have had family members arrested indefinitelly, killed, so forth, and then you have those that live under house arrest and can't send their kids to school. Which of these groups has any reason to trust israelis? So, there is a trut roblem, both ways, and if one ignores that it is a two sided problem, you can't come up with a solution.

Panag

You are right, I have never lived with terrorism, and let me add: SO WHAT? International problems are not solved by feelings. There is a reason when a crime is committed that the jury be impartial, unconnected and unemotional: because if it is any of those, it can't come up with an equitable, fair, workable solution. The peace deal in Bosnia, a aplce that saw far more bloodshed than israel has seen, was created by outsiders. The peacedeal in northern ireland was helped along by outsiders as well. I don't have any confidence in the two aprties of this dispute slving it by themselves, for the very reasons you say you can: because you are emotionally attached, because you function based on past experiences and the feelings they bring up: so do the palestinians, and since the past is so damn bloody, neither of the two sides is able to think ahead, only backwards.

[Az]

and if one ignores that it is a two sided problem, you can't come up with a solution.

noone ignores that. But Whenever you go into the blame game, I am ready to play ball.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

noone ignores that. But Whenever you go into the blame game, I am ready to play ball.

Oh, i have never claimed to be impartial. I do think that certain policies are the underlying evil of the situation and I think everyone knows which policies are those.

Everyone is guilty of what they have done: Hamas and IJ and Al Aqsa are guilty of what are now classifiesd as war crimes, Fatah and the PA are guilty of breaking their security guarantees to israel and lookig aside as the forementioned groups carry out their war crimes. The israeli government is also guilty of war crimes (settlements are a crime of war), mass violations of human rights, and looking the other way as some israeli citizens are themselves guilty of criminal acts (not war crimes, as they are not states or organizations). Everyone involved needs to be judged correctly, and then we need plan of action to stop all these crimes from continuing, and while I conced that the vilent crimes need to stop first, they can never be used to justified the no less morally reprehansable crimes listed.

[Az]

and while I conced that the vilent crimes need to stop first, they can never be used to justified the no less morally reprehansable crimes listed.

I am glad to hear that we can shake hands on that. I'd like, however to raise the question of validity of The Geneva Convention, and point out that it hasn't been respect in any military engagement yet. The same could be said of the UNs founding charter concerning most states human rights, and economic priorities, etc. If noone protects the law, give me a single reason for an interesant party to abide it.