Well, i'll be...

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


What lawless void? In 1948 jordan illegally occupied these areas, annexed them and impossed its laws. then in 1967 israel illegally occupied them, and while it did not annex them, it impossed military rule, and eventually the civil administration. And it is at this point, the point of Israeli military and then civli control that settlements begun and were then nurtured, by labor and Likud governments. i fail to see a moment of lawlessness.

I think, GePap, this is where your position becomes debatable.

Prior to '48, both Jew and Arab had a right to live anywhere in Palestine. If you accept the general principle of the United Nations, that one cannot legally change borders by force, no action by force by any state subsequent to ’48 should have been able to change this basic fact. I believe the UN still agrees that the displaced Arabs have a right of return. I believe that UN law and justice demands the same treatment of Jews.

I further note that Israel is comprised of Arabs who actually have full rights as citizens. In contrast, Arabs routinely attack Jewish residents in the West Bank and Gaza.

Your labeling of Israel’s '67 restoration of the status ante to Arab conquests in '48 as "illegal" is the problem with your position.

Arabs demand the eviction of the Jews from the West Bank and Gaza even while they demand that Arabs be allowed to return to Israel. One can easily see the injustice of this demand. An appropriate response by Israel would be to evict all Arabs from Israel if the settlers are evicted in any final settlement of a Palestinian state.

More and more it seems that a better solution would be one to integrate Arabs into a greater Israel.

[Az]

well, I really don't see it working. The'll be half of the population, and though I am not really fond of the working ethics of our government , this is small change to the lack of any governing morality over there. Corruption is so-widespread, that a law-abiding clerk is a rare phenomenon. I could see a trickling integration, but all at once, no way. Plus, the economy would collapse.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

I am glad to hear that we can shake hands on that. I'd like, however to raise the question of validity of The Geneva Convention, and point out that it hasn't been respect in any military engagement yet. The same could be said of the UNs founding charter concerning most states human rights, and economic priorities, etc. If noone protects the law, give me a single reason for an interesant party to abide it.

First of all, if you say screw the rules, then what exaclty is wrong with bus bombings, huh? If it is so ruthless and lawless, and you can excuse, or I should excuse not following the rules, then i have no way to condenm the attacks carried out by Hamas or IJ or A;l Aqsa, since they are doing what they can in hitting 'soft tragets' since they lack the firepower to go for 'hard ones'.

Not following the rules has gotten israeli nowhere: why not trya fresh approach?

[chequita guevara]

You need a peace and reconcilliation commission, like the South Africans have.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned
Prior to '48, both Jew and Arab had a right to live anywhere in Palestine. If you accept the general principle of the United Nations, that one cannot legally change borders by force, no action by force by any state subsequent to ’48 should have been able to change this basic fact. I believe the UN still agrees that the displaced Arabs have a right of return. I believe that UN law and justice demands the same treatment of Jews.

Well, then even Israel within the green line can't be acepted by that definition. look at a map of the partition lines: What today is recognized as israel includes significant sections of the lands that were supposed to be part of the Arab state. As for people returning. you are rght,r efugees have the right to return, but only refugees. The lands given to the Arabs by the partition plan included about 20,000 Jews. If we say that all refugees get to go home, then fine, these 20,000 jews can go home, and so can the 750,000 Palestinians. But no one else fits under that category. there were no Jews in Hebron or around it as of 1948- so that no Jew living there can claim to be a refugee returning home. Very few arabs could call themselves refugees from Tel Aviv itself. perhaps nearbye Jaffa, but not Tel Aviv.

I further note that Israel is comprised of Arabs who actually have full rights as citizens. In contrast, Arabs routinely attack Jewish residents in the West Bank and Gaza.

Jewish settler are Israeli ctizens living outside of Israeli territory. I do not endorse attacking settlers, but Arabs who are Israeli citizens have every right to live where they live and a modern democratic state should be expected to provide safety and equality under the law to all its citizens regardless of ethnicity. jewish settlers live where they live illegaly. At best they can be seen as illegal squatters living on and that is not theirs.

Your labeling of Israel’s '67 restoration of the status ante to Arab conquests in '48 as "illegal" is the problem with your position.

None of the lands Israel took in 1967 were ever intended to be Part of Israel, if we take the 1947 partition as the uideline for what was who's. So israel taking these lands is in no way a 'restoration'.

Arabs demand the eviction of the Jews from the West Bank and Gaza even while they demand that Arabs be allowed to return to Israel. One can easily see the injustice of this demand. An appropriate response by Israel would be to evict all Arabs from Israel if the settlers are evicted in any final settlement of a Palestinian state.

Again, there is a vast difference between the status of people as refugees, defined as individuals who lived somewhere and were then forced to move, or moved because of fear of attack, who's right to return is guaranteed by international laws, and migrants, who are people not from somewhere moving there. All sattes have the right to control immigration. Israel has it, and so would any future palestiian state. Settlers do not count as migrants, they count as ilegal settlers, oulawed by ionternational law.

More and more it seems that a better solution would be one to integrate Arabs into a greater Israel.

I agree that afederal union would be best for both sides. sadly neither side wants it.

[Az]

First of all, if you say screw the rules, then what exaclty is wrong with bus bombings, huh? If it is so ruthless and lawless, and you can excuse, or I should excuse not following the rules, then i have no way to condenm the attacks carried out by Hamas or IJ or A;l Aqsa, since they are doing what they can in hitting 'soft tragets' since they lack the firepower to go for 'hard ones'.

Not following the rules has gotten israeli nowhere: why not trya fresh approach?

1) we're pretty well off.
2) Following the rules when everyone else doesn't, would be rather stupid and would give the other side the edge, don't you think? think of a country a monolith entity. It's not correct, but similarly to newtonian physics it's a damn good approximation in the scope we're looking. "but then you're not better than them" is right , but being better is on a second priority when your existance is in danger.

[Eli]

The Sunday Times :

As a result of the Hebron terract Sharon ordered the Mossad to move Ramadan Abdalla Shalah, the head of the Islamic Jihad who resides in Damascus, to the top of the hit list.

Shalah replaced Pathi Shkaki who founded the organization in the 70s and led it until he was assasinated in Malta in 1995.

[GePap]

Lets see if this map of the 1947 partition plan works:



Israel has been violating the civil and human rights of Palestinians since 1967. The current violence begun in 2000, and even suicide bombing begun in 1994. So there are 26 years in which your agument Azazel is somewhat invalid.

[chequita guevara]

Try this.

[GePap]

Great site Che: thanks.

I had gone to the UN site on the Palestinian question. You would think they would have better maps

[Az]

oh sure. Let's forget about the murders of school kids, more than 30 in number in a single incident which I remember, simply because I made the english version of their commemoration site, multitudes of attacks on truck convoys of supplies, on the road to Jerusalem, attacks on buses in the negev, and many more. I am not going even to talk about the beginning of the Jewish-arab violence in 26' or so, when the arabs attacked the jews, because they've installed a small cordon that separated the men and women during prayer at the wailing wall. The damn PLO was established before 67'. What's more to say? plus, I was talking about other arab neighbours: Jordan has occupied the West bank for 19 years. Syria is still occupying Lebanon.

oh, and the map doesn't work.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GePap
Great site Che: thanks.

Thank you. It's part of my personal website. I scanned the images in and colored them a few years back for my first ME thread. Oh how naive I was.

[The diplomat]

The thing about those maps, is that they show how unfair the partition was to Israel. You can't tell me that this map is fair to Israel.


The partition plan would have given the Palestinians an independant State, yet the Arabs still attacked Israel in 48'

[chequita guevara]

The PLO was a paper organization before 1967, however, Azazel. It wasn't until Arafat and Fatah took the group over that it was anything more than a mouth peice for Nasser.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
oh sure. Let's forget about the murders of school kids, more than 30 in number in a single incident which I remember, simply because I made the english version of their commemoration site, multitudes of attacks on truck convoys of supplies, on the road to Jerusalem, attacks on buses in the negev, and many more. I am not going even to talk about the beginning of the Jewish-arab violence in 26' or so, when the arabs attacked the jews, because they've installed a small cordon that separated the men and women during prayer at the wailing wall. The damn PLO was established before 67'. What's more to say? plus, I was talking about other arab neighbours: Jordan has occupied the West bank for 19 years. Syria is still occupying Lebanon.

oh, and the map doesn't work.

First, go to Che's links. Very infomative.

Second: Arab-Israeli violence went both ways. What about Israeli massacres of palestinians between 1948-49? Second, while Fatah was created before 1967, in 1964 (wow), the PLO as a group organization begun in 1968. Plus, go to your own governments foreign minstry site, in English. It gives a list of all Israeli killed in what the Israeli government calls terrorist attacks. A total of about 280 or so before the first intafadah: that, I am sorry to say, hardly justifies the occupation. Yes, Jordan occupied the place for 19 years, so? Look, you beat them at that too! Oh, and don't be too angry that Syria ended up winning the whole 'who gets to make Lebanon their puppet' game Israel and Syria fought from 1982.

Let me be clear: Nothing justifies the occupation of the west Bank and gaza. Nothing, anymore than the occupation justifies terrorist attacks.