Well, i'll be...

[Panag]

Originally posted by GePap
Eli:

As i have said before, I don't care about 'historical rights' since I don't believe they exist. History owes one nothing. Rights are to individuals, not to ethnic groups. I know of the 1929 massacre, bu the fact that there were jews in Hebron gives the settlers no more right to live where they do than it would give palestinians to demand that they be given a neighborhood in Jaffa becaue that used to be an Arab city for a millenium.
The foundation of Israel did bring up many issue about right and wrong: but to me those are mute points, since israeli is now a recognized state. Once you are reconized as part of the iternational community, the issue of birth is no longer relevant. the issue of behavior and following the rules of the international community continue to be.

Fez:

I have never seen a horrible thing in person, but I must say that the pictures of the aftremath of suicide bombings to me is no more horrible at all than pictures form the Holocaust, rwanda, any other terrorist site, ambodia, so forth and so on. And thay don't matter to me either. It may be hard, but the horros of the ast must always be overcome to create a bettre future.

If the tutsi of rwanda and the hutu of rwanda, who live in a small area, as small as israel, with as many players (8 million people in Rwanda in 1994, 9 million in Israel and the territories) can ba asked to put back their extremely poor state after a bout of violence that lead to more deaths and more refugees in 3 years than the last 52 of Israeli-Arab disputes, then why can far richer societies that have seen far less dramatic and horrific acts be thought to be incapable? To me that is non-sensical.

hi ,

and we dont care about people who actually know next to nothing about the issue , ........

have a nice day

[GePap]

How have I shown my ignorance of the issue involved, Panag?

[Az]

Yeah, after all, look at how those hateful Egyptians and Jordanians refuse to make peace with israel!

yeah, well, It's funny really, esp. With that "Elders of Zion" hit TV series running on Egyptian TV.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

yeah, well, It's funny really, esp. With that "Elders of Zion" hit TV series running on Egyptian TV.

And this invalidates the peace treaty how? Fine, the Egyptians don't love Israelis any more then israelis love Egypt. Or am I mistaken and the israeli press commonly runs articles prasing Arabs and thier fine culture?

The growing European style of Anti-semitism in the Arabs and muslim world is worrisome, and the question is what to do to constructively battle it, not just say: 'see, they hate us', because Azazel, if that is true, then Israel has no future long term, and I myself would not like to see that as the eventual outcome when I am 80 years old.

[Az]

Or am I mistaken and the israeli press commonly runs articles prasing Arabs and thier fine culture?

I'll ignore that comment. The Israeli press doesn't run articles that say that the the egyptians in particular, or arabs generally, are bloodthirsty murderers. Some of them do criticize arab regimes, for being corrupt, and authoritarian, and generally failing, or the people of the region for failing to change their governments or change themselves, but noone legit press demonizes them etc.

because Azazel, if that is true, then Israel has no future long term

the same could be said on most arab and other 3rd world countries.


This invalidates the peace treaty very simple. The govt. of egypt gives to it's people neither the freedom nor the economic prosperity. Therefore it will fall sooner, rather than later. And then , The peace treaty will be more useful as TP.

[Ned]

GePap, regardless of history, your attitude concerning the "provocation" of Jews living in Hebron is the exactly the same as the "provocation" of Jews living in Palestine. (To be truthful, the provocation is not so much as they are Jewish, it is because they are not subject to Arab rule.)

The Jews have a right to live anywhere in Palestine they want. Palestine is just as much their homeland as it its an Arab homeland. If you disagree with this, then tell me how the Jews lost their right to live in Palestine?

[GePap]

I agree that the isareli press is professional and that this sort of program would never make it in israeli TV. At the same time, the disturst of the tother is not one sided, now is it?

the same could be said on most arab and other 3rd world countries.

How so? first of all, there is a big diffeence between state and governments. Many 3rd world governments are unstable, but that does not mean the state is on the verge of destruction.

I always remeber what I read while putting my Thesis together. soon after the 1967 war in a talk to new officenrs Yitzhak Rabin compared Israel to the crusader kingdoms (which is a comparison also often made by arabs) and stated that what israeli needed to survive then was a huge influx of new citizens to gain a foothold. The problem is, as was for the Cursader kingdoms, that israel is an Arab world. Aftre 50 years of migrations the Arab-Jewish split in the lands that used to be the mandate of palestine are about 50-50 (and a few tens of thousands of others), and every single demographics discussion I have ever seen held by israelis always bemoans the fact that the arabs will overtake jews in the long term, certainly by 2050 (by which time I will be close to 80). What happens then? What happens to the dream of a jewsih state then? Do you think the Arabs are going to disappear, or that even the immense Military superiority Israel has today will make up for it in the future anymore than it does today, under more favorable conditions?

I always hear about how jews have every reason to disturst Arabs. Well, give me any reason during that time that Arabs have had to trust jews, Palestinians especially?

I never ehar anyone propose possible slutions, just blame side X for everything. Well, fine, go on blaming, but that ain't going to mean jack by 2050, now is it?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned
GePap, regardless of history, your attitude concerning the "provocation" of Jews living in Hebron is the exactly the same as the "provocation" of Jews living in Palestine. (To be truthful, the provocation is not so much as they are Jewish, it is because they are not subject to Arab rule.)

The Jews have a right to live anywhere in Palestine they want. Palestine is just as much their homeland as it its an Arab homeland. If you disagree with this, then tell me how the Jews lost their right to live in Palestine?

Well Ned, firt of all, I assume you think that Palestinians have evry right to live anywhere in Israeli as well, and you would not be opposed to a mass return of refugees, or would you?


As I said before, the existence of Israel is not a 'provocation'. israel is a recognized state, part of the UN, with all the rights and responsibilites that entails. Thus, israel ahs the right to control its immigration policy, and to seek whatever details it thinks necessary when negotiating peace deals, while at the same time, it has to follow international law when regarding the occupied territories. Israel has the right to continues to exist but it has never had the right to create illegal settlements on occupied territories. So to me, a comparison of Israel and the settlements is invalid. they are nopt the same. I don;t buy the right-wing moral argument that tries to bring into question the morality of Israel so that supporters of Israel are forced to agree with the morality of illegal settlements because otherwise they are invalidating Israel itself. Israel is legal, look it up: the settlements are NOT. Look that up.

[Az]

How so? first of all, there is a big diffeence between state and governments. Many 3rd world governments are unstable, but that does not mean the state is on the verge of destruction.

How will exactly states in the ME will continue to exist , with no economical basis? Plus, Most forcasts predict a ten-fold reduction in the human population of the earth by 2070, if current socio-econo-ecologial trends continue. And guess what, most of the 90 percent won't be a part of the golden billion.

[Eli]

Btw :

12 israeli settlers killed in heborn

Only 3 were settlers, the other 9 were soldiers.

[Az]

Israel has the right to continues to exist but it has never had the right to create illegal settlements on occupied territories.

I agree. However, Israel was just another country filling a void in a lawless world, and one shouldn't single it out for that.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

How will exactly states in the ME will continue to exist , with no economical basis? Plus, Most forcasts predict a ten-fold reduction in the human population of the earth by 2070, if current socio-econo-ecologial trends continue. And guess what, most of the 90 percent won't be a part of the golden billion.

A ten-fold reduction in human numbers would entail the death of several billion human beings. Do they forcast some sort of apocalypse coming around that time? The UN population estimates I have seen have some high and low estimates of growth, with the slow putting earths population at around 7-8 billion and high around 12. by 2050 But that means that most rich nations loose people, while area like Arab states gain. Israel is in the rich category, so that arabs will overtake jews in the area.

Sates don't exist for economic reasons, they exist for political reasons. Aftre all, is Isreal itself some sort of natural economic unit as is, or Germany, or poland, or any European state? Or any state in latin America? Why would egypt, a state that sort of connects its history back to the beginning of Uhman history disappear in the next 60? And the region of the Euphrates and tigris valleys: they also count their history back a few millenia, as does Persia... So why would these state suddenly collapse? Failing economies have not lead to a collapse of N Korea or Cuba, certainly not in regims and far less as independent states.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
I agree. However, Israel was just another country filling a void in a lawless world, and one shouldn't single it out for that.

What lawless void? In 1948 jordan illegally occupied these areas, annexed them and impossed its laws. then in 1967 israel illegally occupied them, and while it did not annex them, it impossed military rule, and eventually the civil administration. And it is at this point, the point of Israeli military and then civli control that settlements begun and were then nurtured, by labor and Likud governments. i fail to see a moment of lawlessness.

[Az]

My point exactly. Someone does it why shouldn't we? you know, the way civil disorder begins. I didn't say it's right.

A ten-fold reduction in human numbers would entail the death of several billion human beings. Do they forcast some sort of apocalypse coming around that time? The UN population estimates I have seen have some high and low estimates of growth, with the slow putting earths population at around 7-8 billion and high around 12. by 2050 But that means that most rich nations loose people, while area like Arab states gain. Israel is in the rich category, so that arabs will overtake jews in the area.

I had that data in a lecture I heard about the enviroment in the world. It's the depetion of the earth resourses, the greenhouse effect, demographics, and (rather shadowy) economics.

IF THE CURRENT TREND CONTINUES, arab people will 'overtake' the jewish population, but not in 2050, much later. the current arab population of Israel is 17%, and the jewish population is still gaining from both jewish immigrants, and jewish population growth, ( albeit a much smaller one ).

Sates don't exist for economic reasons, they exist for political reasons. Aftre all, is Isreal itself some sort of natural economic unit as is, or Germany, or poland, or any European state? Or any state in latin America? Why would egypt, a state that sort of connects its history back to the beginning of Uhman history disappear in the next 60? And the region of the Euphrates and tigris valleys: they also count their history back a few millenia, as does Persia... So why would these state suddenly collapse? Failing economies have not lead to a collapse of N Korea or Cuba, certainly not in regims and far less as independent states.

This is funny. You point out Egypt, Mesapotamia, and Persia, as countries, that can trace their roots. If you said Greece, Japan, or China, I could clearly see that. But there are no remains of neither Egyptian, Babylonian/Assyrian/Whichever, or Persian culture, except the Persian Language, which may be the only exception in the forementioned cases. Lets not forget that during most of the human history, these countries did not exist as single entities.

In either scenario, the cataclysmic one of the massive depopulation of the earth, or the stop of usage of fossil fuels with the invention of any alternative source, the arab world LOOSES OUT. there is now way to support even the primitive lifestyle there is. The economics are stagnant, but the people are not subdued totally, and chaos will break out.

[GePap]

Well: first, i don't buy the notion that earth resources are being used up in a manner that will lead to a collpase of the world's population. The problem is not production but distribution. Fine, there might be serious political upheavals over distribution but not a huge population collapse.

NOw, when I speak of Aarbs overtaking Jews I don't only count the territory inside the Green line, bu the entire mandate region, so West Bank and gaza included. After all, The West bank and israel share the same aquifer and so forth. Right now you have 5.5 million Jews, and about 4.5 to 5 million arabs, with a few tens of thousand of others, if not hundreads of thousands. Thus, the overall demographic picture for Israel is grim.

And on this cataclysim you see coming: no one would survive such a terible event unscathed, and israel would most likely not survive it at all: the water issue is enough to show that. Israel can hardly meet its water needs today- it will get harder and harder with time, and if the Arab world were to collapse, i see no reason why the aarbs would be less likely to damn everyone and destroy Israel anymore than if isreal were collapsing it would seek to take all the Arab states around it with it. So for your own sake, and that of your offspring, hope what they said in that atlk never even comes close to being true.