Racial controversy

[MikeH]

"Why is it racist to point out a fact?"

The assumption that someone is more likely to be a criminal purely based on the colour of their skin is racist.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by tinyp3nis
There is not enough evidence for me to decide if all races are equal. They seem to be pretty much the same, but pretty much doesn't cut it here, because that is not the point here right? Believing something just because it seems so nice and fair is just lame.

This is exactly my point. It has not been proven that all races are equal, so why do those who believe this to be true attack anyone who thinks differently?

[gsmoove23]

Do you have enough evidence to decide they're not equal? If not what would you're default assumption be. For example, if you were deciding who to hire, do you ignore the issue or work under certain assumptions?

My point is I don't believe something I may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire. I know this will be an unpopular idea in this forum.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MikeH
The assumption that someone is more likely to be a criminal purely based on the colour of their skin is racist.

But if race X has a greater proportion of its members arrested for commiting violent crimes, then its true that a member of race X is more likely to be a violent criminal isnt it?

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Caligastia


But if race X has a greater proportion of its members arrested for commiting violent crimes, then its true that a member of race X is more likely to be a violent criminal isnt it?

I believe you have to be more specific. Sometimes a race will be targeted by authorities, for whatever reason, sometimes even racism. I could not say that was a correct statement.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Do you have enough evidence to decide they're not equal? If not what would you're default assumption be. For example, if you were deciding who to hire, do you ignore the issue or work under certain assumptions?

Although I believe differences between races are more than skin deep, I would not consider the races of job applicants when deciding who to hire.

My point is we don't believe something we may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire. I know this will be an unpopular idea in this forum.

So you don't think its possible to believe in racial differences and consider all humans your brothers and sisters? I can tell you from my own experience that it is.

[gsmoove23]

Prime example, apartheid S.Africa. I can only assume that more blacks were arrested for violent crimes then whites. Would your statement work here?

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Although I believe differences between races are more than skin deep, I would not consider the races of job applicants when deciding who to hire.

Thats very admirable(I mean it, since you're taking a risk for idealogical reasons if you believe someone might be better at a job then another for racial reasons) but I would not trust the rest of humanity to act so humanely.

Originally posted by Caligastia
So you don't think its possible to believe in racial differences and consider all humans your brothers and sisters? I can tell you from my own experience that it is.

I certainly believe thats possible, people can do horrible things to their brothers and sisters. Seriously, loving your fellow man doesn't equate to doing good for your fellow man.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


I believe you have to be more specific. Sometimes a race will be targeted by authorities, for whatever reason, sometimes even racism. I could not say that was a correct statement.

You see, even without proof you want to believe that its police racism that causes race X to have a disproportionate number of its members arrested for violent crime.

If it was proven that police racism was a very minor factor, would it still be offend you if someone pointed out that race X commits more violent crime?

[tinyp3nis]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Do you have enough evidence to decide they're not equal? If not what would you're default assumption be. For example, if you were deciding who to hire, do you ignore the issue or work under certain assumptions?

My point is I don't believe something I may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire. I know this will be an unpopular idea in this forum.

I am curious by nature. I love correct information. I dislike people who don't pursuit things that are true, but instead "nice" or like the mother told them. I do not have default assumption, but in my eyes everyone who does are ignorant, even if they are right by chance.

oh and

My point is I don't believe something I may not be able to prove because "it seems so nice and fair", but because the consequences of believing otherwise is too dire.

the two things you compare here are the same thing...

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


Thats very admirable(I mean it, since you're taking a risk for idealogical reasons if you believe someone might be better at a job then another for racial reasons) but I would not trust the rest of humanity to act so humanely.

But I wouldn't really be taking a risk because although I believe in racial differences, I also believe in judging people on an individual basis. An individual may not be typical of his/her race.

I certainly believe thats possible, people can do horrible things to their brothers and sisters. Seriously, loving your fellow man doesn't equate to doing good for your fellow man.

Neither does loving your fellow man mean believing he is equal to you in every way.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Caligastia


You see, even without proof you want to believe that its police racism that causes race X to have a disproportionate number of its members arrested for violent crime.

If it was proven that police racism was a very minor factor, would it still be offend you if someone pointed out that race X commits more violent crime?

Hold on, I was refuting that your equation was necessarily true, nothing else, I'm keeping this debate relatively honest lets not try to manufacture our points. That being said I have already stated that I don't need proof to "believe" that their are no "races". Thats just my own personal foible.

I would not be offended with someone stating "race X commits more violent crime?", though honestly warning lights would be going off in my head and I would want to point out other reasons why this may be true. If they continued to argue a purely racial reasoning for this I would certainly get dragged into a long heated discussion.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Caligastia But I wouldn't really be taking a risk because although I believe in racial differences, I also believe in judging people on an individual basis. An individual may not be typical of his/her race.

Neither does loving your fellow man mean believing he is equal to you in every way.

As you I judge on an individual basis. I recognize genetic influence on someones social/intellectual yada yada, I just don't recognize measurable differences between so called races.

Still, if you believed that statistically there is a higher chance that a white person would do a better job and you have 2 equal applicants, black and white.. you know the old arguement. Denying your knowledge of statistical racial differences would be a risk.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Caligastia


But if race X has a greater proportion of its members arrested for commiting violent crimes, then its true that a member of race X is more likely to be a violent criminal isnt it?

No, it only proves that they are more likely to be arrested for being a violent criminal. Nothing more.

Which might just mean that the police are just more likely to catch them. Which wouldn't be surprising giving the link Boddies posted.

Also it ignores the strong links between income and social situation and in most western nations the ethnic minorities have lower living standards and incomes than the majority.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Hold on, I was refuting that your equation was necessarily true, nothing else, I'm keeping this debate relatively honest lets not try to manufacture our points. That being said I have already stated that I don't need proof to "believe" that their are no "races". Thats just my own personal foible.

I would not be offended with someone stating "race X commits more violent crime?", though honestly warning lights would be going off in my head and I would want to point out other reasons why this may be true. If they continued to argue a purely racial reasoning for this I would certainly get dragged into a long heated discussion.

I'm glad that you are honest enough to admit that you don't have any proof of what you believe. Yet, although you know there is no proof of what you believe, you are prepared to get into a heated discussion over it? Why so heated? The person you are arguing with does not necessarily believe what they do because of hate.