Racial controversy

[Caligastia]

Why is it so controversial to suggest that different races think or behave differently?

In Boddington's thread about crime, some considered it "racist" to say that race X commits more violent crime than race Y. Why is it racist to point out a fact? Of course the standard response to this is that race X only gets caught for more violent crime than race Y because police officers are "racist", or that race X is oppressed, poor, or disadvantaged so we shouldn't be suprised that they're more violent.

So it seems that we are expected to believe that all races, given the same environment, would have equal outcomes. To believe anything else means you are considered an evil racist.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

If you selected two groups of people at random, from all races, but all from a similar culture/environment (to cancel out the environmental factor), would you expect each group to have exactly the same averages for crime/intelligence? If not, then why is it expected that if each group is racially homogenous, then averages will be the same? With the environmental factor being cancelled out in both groupings, why would you expect outcomes to suddenly be equal between the two racially homogenous groups?

We have such enormous variation between humans in general, that I think it would be hard to find any two groups that were exactly the same, even if you cancel out environment.

It seems that the admirable desire to treat all people equally, regardless of race, has become mixed up with thinking that there are no (non aesthetic) differences between races.


Do you believe that race is only skin deep?

Why?

[Urban Ranger]

What makes you think that there are various "races?"

If you look at dogs and cats, there are even a greater variety among them. So are there various "races" of dogs and cats? Why?

[TheStinger]

Re: Racial controversy

Originally posted by Caligastia


Do you believe that race is only skin deep?

Why?

Yes.

As every human race on the planet can breed succesfully with each other that would suggest the differnces between them are incredibly small.

[Caligastia]

Re: Re: Racial controversy

Originally posted by TheStinger
As every human race on the planet can breed succesfully with each other that would suggest the differnces between them are incredibly small.

But breeding that takes place within one race will still produce massive variation, so why shouldn't this happen between different races?

[Urban Ranger]

Lets take some measurable characteristic such as height. Take the maximum recorded height, the average height, and the minimum recorded height of blacks, whites, and Asians. Compute the variation within a "race" and the variation across various "races." What is bigger? Compare the differences of each "race." Tell me what you find.

[Caligastia]

UR-

That there is significant variation within races does not mean that there can be no significant variation between races does it?

[gsmoove23]

Re: Racial controversy

Yes in fact, IMO race is only skin deep. The relatively superficial differences in appearance that signify different "races" is the affect of an incredibly small percentage of our genetic makeup. Certain black african populations have been seen to have more genetic variety between each other then they have with certain white european populations. The idea of race is a completely human fabrication, while I have no doubt that people have different genetic make-ups which affect intelligence, sociability and such I don't believe race is any reliable way to distinguish this.

I also have a 'faith' that this is the case which some people might see as limiting, however it is based on the belief that delving into genetic racial differences and gaining "conclusions" on intelligence and behaviour is a dead-end road. If you were able to prove that whites are statistically likely to be inferior to, I don't know, aboriginees then what would you do with that information. What if blacks were more prone to crime, well perhaps they could have a separate legal status that would make it easier to convict them since they're more likely to be guilty. Its just an ugly line of thinking.

[Urban Ranger]

You have two cases:

1. There is a much bigger variation with in a "race" than across
2. There is a much bigger variation across than within each "race"

Case one does not support your hypothesis of "races," case two does.

[Kropotkin]

Well, if you would use common statistical tests about your hypothesis large variations would lead to it being impossible to show a difference between 'races' on a any acceptable significance.

[Urban Ranger]

Grab an average white, an average black, and an average Asian. How big a difference is among them?

Take a middle class black in the US. Does she have more in common with a poor black or a middle class white?

[TheStinger]

Even better

take a middle class black in England has he more in common with with an middle class englishman or a working class south african

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Caligastia
UR-

That there is significant variation within races does not mean that there can be no significant variation between races does it?

Yes, there is no significant variation in how different races behave because of the vast variation of behaviour within a race.

The basic problem with using race as a predictor is that race is an artificial construct. Who is a member of the white race? The answer is subjective. So when we look at crime stats based on race, we are looking at a subjective judgement. A cop could arrest someone and record the person as white, the next day the same person get arrested and is recorded as being black.

While race is cannot be used to predict behaviour, we can use it to measure how people respond to different races. So we can look at significant statistical anomolies that indicate that cops treat blacks differently than whites.

[Solly]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Grab an average white, an average black, and an average Asian. How big a difference is among them?

Take a middle class black in the US. Does she have more in common with a poor black or a middle class white?

Sampling fallacy.

[tinyp3nis]

There is not enough evidence for me to decide if all races are equal. They seem to be pretty much the same, but pretty much doesn't cut it here, because that is not the point here right? Believing something just because it seems so nice and fair is just lame.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You have two cases:

1. There is a much bigger variation with in a "race" than across
2. There is a much bigger variation across than within each "race"

Case one does not support your hypothesis of "races," case two does.

But are these two cases mutually exclusive? Is it not possible that there is variation both within and between different races?