Do you believe in Free-Will, the Soul, and God?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Lincoln
"I'm really surprised the concept is still kicking around."

Maybe because it is true?? Missusing a truth does not turn it into a lie. Your first paragraph says it all though.

Basically its nonsense based on a very selective reading of mainly Saint Paul. It only really appeals to Christian fringe dwellers and cultists who want to believe they are right and everyone else is wrong because they are the "elect".

David Koresh believed in predestination. I rest my case

[Ramo]

A biological organism cannot be reduced to the laws of physics except on a micro level.

Assuming almost total knowledge, and plenty of time/computing resources, etc., the behavior at the macro-level can be extrapolated from physical laws.

Edit: Misread the post.

[Lincoln]

O good. Now you all and Ramo argue this out.

[The Vagabond]

I'd say that being an architect is the study of building buildings. The architect doesn't need to know a number of lower level details that a physicist might need to know.

Sorry, all this talk made me recall an old joke. Three students majoring in architecture, chemistry and physics respectively are asked one and the same question:

What do you think when you stare at a brick?

The following answers were obtained:

Architect: I just think about all nice buildings that can be built of bricks.

Chemist: I think about how complex the molecular structure of a brick must be.

Physicist: I think about a woman.
Interviewer: Oh really? Why??
Physicist: I always think about her.


I apologize for this small threadjacking. I hope you'll forgive me.

[Lincoln]

Well that is a lot of assuming you are doing Ramo. But anyway no one has answered my question. SG got it wrong. What law of physics causes me to say "how are you" as opposed to saying "have a nice day"? Where does the information come from -- what law?

[GePap]

wow Lincoln..

You and i agreeing against the forces of deterministic physics...

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Lincoln
SG got it wrong.

Then what is your answer?

[Aeson]

I agree that to accept freewill there has to be some sort of soul. Freewill can only operate on a level that is not physical. If it is physical, then it is bound by the laws which govern physical interaction, and not free at all.

Of course, whatever a soul consists of would be bound by the laws which govern spiritual interactions... I can't see any room for freewill to exist. The only way you can break out of causality is to introduce a truely random (ie. non-predictable even in the face of omniscience) element, which even if it could exist can only add randomness to the equation, which isn't freewill either.

[GePap]

If we can't ever see the 'laws' that make us not have free will, then the 'illusion' of one works and we can just move on with our lives pretending it is here.

Just like the fact that the real world is nothing but an illusion doen't stop many buddhist from enjoying themselves a nice meal of illusionary meat.

[Ramo]

Well that is a lot of assuming you are doing Ramo.

Why? Our physical laws are currently remarkably accurate. It seems like a very reasonable assumption.

Where does the information come from -- what law?

Primarily, the current theories on the electromagentic force, I imagine.

[Bkeela]

I believe in extremely limited freewill. We have the power to choose what cereal we eat for breakfast, or the type of transport we take to work. But we don't have control over the really important things in life, like our sexuality, or our eternal destination.

Bkeela.

[Lincoln]

The answer is that information is not based upon the laws of physics. If information was based on the laws of physics then there could be no information because we would always find the same order. For example I can arrange these letters to form any order but the laws of physics do not cause any order to be typed. The laws of physics provide only for a random arrangement.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Lincoln
The answer is that information is not based upon the laws of physics. If information was based on the laws of physics then there could be no information because we would always find the same order. For example I can arrange these letters to form any order but the laws of physics do not cause any order to be typed. The laws of physics provide only for a random arrangement.

It appears you are talking about statistical mechanics, which is derivable from the laws of physics.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by GePap
If we can't ever see the 'laws' that make us not have free will, then the 'illusion' of one works and we can just move on with our lives pretending it is here.

Who said we can't ever see these laws? Pretending that they don't exist would just be a self imposed barrier to furthering our understanding of how the human mind functions. We have made great strides in just the past few decades in this field. Mental disorders are much better treated now than they were. Why should we just abandon hope of learning anything more?

Just like the fact that the real world is nothing but an illusion doen't stop many buddhist from enjoying themselves a nice meal of illusionary meat.

This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we experience things, or make choices, it is obvious that we do. Rather, this is about understanding the mechanism by which we experience those things, and make those choices. Understanding that can only lead us to making better choices, and having better experiences.

[Lincoln]

No, I am talking about meaningful information not order that has no meaning. In a living organism the DNA is effectively divided into a 3 letter code and that code is translated and understood by the machinery that uses the information to actually make something that works and lives. It is meaningful inofrmation that has meaning to the various parts of the machine that uses the information and reads the instructions provided in coded form. No law of physics forces this to happen.

The laws of physics are applicable only on a micro level. The existence of the overall machinery is not explained by those laws anymore than an automatic transmission is. Gears thrown into a gear box do not organize themselves into a transmission because they must be specificially instructed. Life is not simply random proteins. It is organized and ordered according to instructions contained in DNA in coded form.