Do you believe in Free-Will, the Soul, and God?

[Lincoln]

Well I do believe in predestination but that does not detract from the will of man except to the extent that the will of another effects our will. In the case of God's will effecting ours it is a matter of the greater wisdom understanding the will of the creation and preparing ahead of time and using it. I have a good article on that if anyone would ike to see it.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Al'Kimiya
nyy

What would be the point of us having a soul if we don't have free-will?

[Caligastia]

Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man's inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.

[GePap]

I believe in Free -Will. Even if my brain 'forces' me to take certain decisions based on the physical circumstances based on whatever sensual imput i recieve, I still have the upper hand in that I can actively change this circuitry, say by hitting myself in the head, killing brain cells by ingesting some type of drug, or killing myself. I also have the choice to actively change my circusmtances. A particle can't choose its destruction: I can: hence free will.

As for the soul: NO.

And as for God, defined as a sentient being making choices: NO.

[Lincoln]

by Stephen C. Henkel

ROMANS 8: 28 - 30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This is the Truth of Scripture, evidenced clearly enough for all to see in what has been called "The Golden Chain of Predestination" in Romans 8: 28 - 30:
God's Foreknowledge of the Eternal Destiny of Men is NOT BASED on His Predestination.
God's Predestination of the Eternal Destiny of Men is BASED UPON His Foreknowledge.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."
No one can deny that those whom God has Predestined as to their Everlasting Destiny, He first Foreknew as to their Salvation. The exact number, and the every name, of every individual of whom God has Predestined to be called, and justified, and sanctified, and glorified, these very same ones He first Foreknew that He would Save.
The question is not whether God's Predestination of the Saints as to their ultimate Glorification is, or is not, based upon His Foreknowledge as to their Salvation. God has Predestinated based upon His Foreknowledge, that is certain enough.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??
The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.
In terms of strict Logic, of course, the first answer cannot possibly be true. A simple enough little syllogism will suffice to demonstrate:

GIVEN that God in His Omniscience, alone in Eternity, foreknows with perfect and absolute certainty every End to which any and every one of an infinite number of Possible Creations (potentials) may be brought; including in His Foreknowledge of every End of every Possible Creation all operations and interactions of Created Time and Created Circumstance, all operations and interactions of Creaturely Will or Wills, and all operations and interactions of His own Divine Will therein, in each and every Potential Creation; and Foreknowing with perfect and absolute certainty precisely HOW every operation and interaction of Created Time, Circumstance, Creaturely Will, and Divine Will therein will bring about the Foreknown End of that Potential Creation and the Foreknown Ends of the Creatures therein; AND...
GIVEN that God in His Omnipotence, enjoying Sovereign Freedom of Action to Create or not Create, and to Create just exactly the particular Foreknown Potential Creation which He electively chooses to Create; Foreknowing all operations and interactions of Created Time, Circumstance, Creaturely Will, and Divine Will therein and the specific and particular End of this Creation and the Ends of the Creatures therein to which the interaction of all these elements shall result; And Foreknowing just exactly how His Elective Choice to create different sorts of Creatures, or different Circumstances, or interpose different actions of Divine Will in any Potential Creation, would result in different choices of Will by the Creatures therein and a different End to a Potential Creation and different Ends to the Creatures therein; THEN

IT IS CERTAIN THAT GOD, foreknowing precisely how His Creation of one, or a different sort of Creatures; or one, or a different set of Circumstances; or one, or a different set of operations of Divine Will; WOULD RESULT in one, or a different set of Choices made by the Wills of the Creatures therein -- HAS BY THE ACT OF CREATION, absolutely Predestined the resultant Choices made by the Wills of the Creatures therein. EVEN IF the Creatures have a perfectly Free Will to do whatsoever they Want at any time and in every place within that Creation, NONETHELESS GOD, in His Foreknowledge of just exactly how His Elective Choice to create different Circumstances or intervene in His Creation in different ways would result in these Creatures freely making different choices, HAS ABSOLUTELY PREDESTINED the choices that these Creatures Freely Will -- by choosing to give Actuality to a certain Foreknown set of Created Circumstances and a certain set of Divine Interactions which result in these creatures Freely Choosing certain Ends which are precisely Foreknown by Him, rather than choosing to give Actuality to a different Foreknown set of Created Circumstances and a different set of Divine Interactions which result in these creatures Freely Choosing different Ends, likewise precisely foreknown by Him.

Thus we see that God, alone in Eternity, Foreknowing all Potential Creations which He may Create (for He does not have to Create at all) and Foreknowing just exactly how all operations and interactions of Created Circumstance and Divine Interactions will result in His Creatures choosing One Choice, or (if He creates different Circumstances or ordains different Divine Actions) A Different Choice, absolutely predestines the Ends of His Creation on the basis of His Foreknowledge of His Own Actions in choosing to create one way, and not another.
Foreknowing that Ordaining to create the set of Circumstances and Divine Interactions (A) -- rather than Circumstances & Interaction (B) or (C), will result in the creatures therein freely choosing End (A), rather than End (B) or End (C) ; AND Foreknowing that Ordaining to create the set of Circumstances and Divine Interactions (B) -- rather than Circumstances & Interaction (A) or (C), will result in the creatures therein freely choosing End (B), rather than End (A) or End (C) ; AND Foreknowing that Ordaining to create the set of Circumstances and Divine Interactions (C) -- rather than Circumstances & Interaction (A) or (B), will result in the creatures therein freely choosing End (C), rather than End (A) or End (B) ; THEN

By choosing to create (B), rather than (A) or (C), Foreknowing that in created scenario (B) His creatures will freely choose (B) rather than (A) or (C), God has Freely Chosen and Absolutely Predestined that (B) should be the End Result. And though the creatures therein freely choose (B) for themselves, they are choosing that which God has already ordained they would choose, by ordaining to Create the Circumstances & Interactions of set (B) in which He knew that they would choose (B), IN PREFERENCE TO creating differently in which they would choose differently.

It is not the actions of the Creatures which determine HIS Predestination, for He perfectly foreknows just exactly HOW they will Choose in one set of Circumstances or Divine Interactions which He may ordain to Create, and just exactly HOW they will choose differently if He creates a different set of Circumstances or Divine Interactions which He may ordain to Create. Rather, His Foreknowledge of HIS OWN actions which determine THEIR Predestination, Foreknowing just exactly HOW his choice to create one way, or another, will result in Creatures freely choosing one End, or another. And in ordaining to Create one way, and not another, and ordain one set of Divine Interactions, and not another, He has CHOSEN to create the scenario in which He has Foreknown that the Creatures therein will choose one way, and not another.

But enough mere Formal Logic. Good grief, proving the truth of Christian-Pauline-Petrine-Johannine-Augustinian-Calvinist Absolute Predestination is blasted EASY on the field of Logic. Why even bother to indulge in such critical reductionism when the Truth of these propositions is laid out plainly enough for us in Scripture by the very spoken Word of the Son of God Himself??
One of the most important passages on the Omniscient Foreknowledge of God is the Gospel of Saint Matthew, chapter 11 verses 20 through 27. These verses are critically important NOT because they speak of the DEPTH of God's Omniscience and Foreknowledge in knowing every last detail of His Creation from Genesis to End (there is plenty enough exposition of the Depth of God's Omniscience in Job and Psalms and Isaiah, and it is rich enough), but because these verses demonstrate the BREADTH of God's Omniscient Foreknowledge in knowing the outcomes of all Possible Creations. Let's examine these verses:
Matthew 11: 20 - 27 --

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Now, what do these verses tell us, regarding the breadth of God's Foreknowledge?
They tell us -- rather, they Biblically affirm and elucidate for us -- that which has already been examined: That, in His Omniscient Foreknowledge, God Foreknows just exactly how HIS OWN actions, one way or another, will result in different choices being made by His creatures, to choose one way, or to choose another.
To wit:

God Foreknew a scenario in which Sodom, Tyre, and Sidon WOULD NOT freely choose to Repent (this is the scenario which actually transpired); and God Foreknew a scenario in which they WOULD freely choose to Repent (this scenario did not transpire).
God knew exactly what would be required to bring about this foreknown Repentance of Sodom, Tyre, and Sidon - specifically, the dispensation of salvific Grace in the performance of Miracles equivalent to those performed in Korazim, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. “If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”
It was fully within God’s Power to perform such Miracles in Tyre, Sidon, or Sodom, had He electively chosen to do so. After all, He did perform these Miracles in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum (who, their rejection of these mighty works, proved themselves to be yet more stiff-necked even than Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom!! How much Grace would have been required to overcome the arrogance of Korazin, or Bethsaid, or Capernaum? Would it have required a “Road to Damascus” type Miracle? Only God knows); and, after all, God has said of His own Omnipotence, “The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand” (Is. 14:24) and again, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:” (Is. 46:10).

Foreknowing with perfect certainty that, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, His Choice to perform Miracles of Grace equal to those which He had ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum would unconditionally result in the peoples of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing to repent of their wicked ways and “remaining to this day”; and, Foreknowing with perfect certainty that, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, His Choice NOT to perform Miracles of Grace equal to those which He had ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum would unconditionally result in the peoples of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom NOT freely choosing to repent of their wicked ways, and thus becoming subject to the Judgment of destruction and damnation;
God SOVEREIGNLY CHOSE not to perform, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, those mighty works of Miraculous Grace equivalent to those which He had ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum which would have resulted in the people of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing to Repent and be spared Judgment. God Foreknew that the performance of such equivalent Miracles would result in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing to Repent; and God Foreknew that the NON-performance of such equivalent Miracles would result in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom freely choosing NOT to Repent. God foreknew with perfect certainty, that His Choice, either to perform, or not to perform, such Miracles -- would have, as its unconditionally foreknown result, the peoples of those cities freely choosing to repent, or not to repent. He foreknew that if He performed these miracles, they would choose to repent; and He foreknew that if He did not perform these Miracles, they would choose not to repent.
Having both Foreknown potentialities available to the Power of His Omnipotence, God chose and ordained NOT to perform, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, Miracles of Grace equivalent to those which He did ordain to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. And, as the perfectly foreknown result of this ordination, these peoples freely chose not to Repent, just as He foreknew they would not.

Having it fully within His power to PREDESTINE the perfectly Foreknown result of these cities freely choosing to Repent (as a reaction to the performance of such Miracles), and having it fully within His power to PREDESTINE the perfectly Foreknown result of these cities freely choosing to NOT Repent (as a result of the non-performance of such Miracles), God SOVEREIGNLY ELECTED AND ORDAINED NOT to perform, in Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, Miracles equivalent to those which He ordained to perform in Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, thus absolutely and unconditionally PREDESTINATING the ultimate Damnation of these peoples as the perfectly foreknown result of His Choice NOT to perform those Miracles which He Foreknew, with perfect certainty, would unconditionally result in these peoples freely choosing to Repent if He were to perform them.

Thus it is certain, and precisely established by the exact Biblical wording of Christ’s condemnation of Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, that God’s Predestination is NOT based upon His Foreknowledge of Man’s actions towards God, but upon God’s Foreknowledge of HIS OWN actions towards Man. For before a man has ever been brought into existence, God foreknows with perfect certainty just exactly what the man will freely choose in each and every circumstance if God ordains to dispense certain Graces unto him in that circumstance, and God foreknows with perfect certainty just exactly what DIFFERENT choice the man will freely choose in a circumstance if God ordains NOT to dispense certain Graces unto him in that circumstance. Therefore has the prophet Isaiah surely said, “Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”

I am of the impression that many rage against Calvinism, primarily on the basis of their hatred of the doctrine of Absolute Predestination.
But Absolute Predestination is NOT the logical dependent consequent of Calvinism. Rather, Calvinism is the logical dependent consequent of simply reading what the Bible teaches about Predestination.
IN FACT, Absolute Predestination is the logical dependent consequent of God’s infinitely comprehensive Foreknowledge -- an unavoidable Fact of Reality resulting from the unarguable Axiom that God Foreknows just exactly what SPECIFIC CHOICE a man will freely choose if God ordains to dispense Grace unto him in a given circumstance, and just exactly what DIFFERENT CHOICE a man will freely choose if God ordains not to dispense Grace unto him in a given circumstance; and God has precisely Foreknown from all eternity whether or not He has ordained to dispense Grace (resulting in the man freely choosing one specifically Foreknown choice), or not to dispense Grace (resulting in the man freely choosing a different specifically Foreknown choice).
Overthrowing Calvinism - even were it possible without putting the Bible through a paper shredder, which it is not - would do nothing to overthrow the Fact of Absolute Predestination, for absolute Predestination is founded NOT upon the particular doctrines of Calvinism, but upon God’s infinitely comprehensive foreknowledge of the choices man will make in a given situation, or make differently, in response to God’s foreordained Election to dispense Grace, or not to dispense Grace, unto that man, in that situation. This is precisely why the Socinian heretics DENIED God’s Foreknowledge of the Choices of Men - for if God knows in advance that a Man will freely choose ONE thing if God shows him grace, and will freely choose A DIFFERENT thing if God ordains NOT to show him grace, then God, in Eternity, has absolutely predestined one, or the other, Foreknown End based upon His sovereign election of Grace.
Every man who will ever be Saved was Foreknown to God in Eternity; every man who will ever be Damned was Foreknown to God in Eternity; and had God chosen to Save the city of Sodom, rather than Damn her, He knew exactly what it would take, and had it fully within His power, and Foreknew that Repentance would be the perfectly-certain result. He chose instead to damn Sodom; leaving Sodom in her sins, performing not the miracles which He foreknew would be sufficient to bring her to Repentance, allowing her perfectly-foreknown free choice thus to NOT repent, and bringing destruction and damnation upon that wicked city.

Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

[Lars-E]

How do you reconcile predestination with "For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace." John 1:16 ?

Note the word "all" above.

I am also a little concerned that you discard classical predestination with something you found on the internet, the ABC stuff. You posted this way back...and it seemed to me to be something that somebody cooked up in their kitchen. Don't you think that classical predestination has been tried and tested more thru time than something average joe made - homemade theology?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GePap
I believe in Free -Will. Even if my brain 'forces' me to take certain decisions based on the physical circumstances based on whatever sensual imput i recieve, I still have the upper hand in that I can actively change this circuitry, say by hitting myself in the head, killing brain cells by ingesting some type of drug, or killing myself. I also have the choice to actively change my circusmtances. A particle can't choose its destruction: I can: hence free will.

I don't understand how that works. If our brains are made up of small electric charges, bichemical processes and various other mechanisms, at what point do they become self-regulating such that the "programming" can be overcome?

At the lowest level we have no control - how do we impose it as a some of our parts? Sure hitting your head or taking drugs causes a change, but whats to say your base mechanisms didn;t cause you to do that in the first place.

I suppose this is a question of artificial intelligence, but aren't all actions based on a set of rules, laws and random chance. How can you 'will' something to happen?


I don't doubt it is possible for people to have free will - it certainly appears that we do, but I'm inclined to think it is illusary.

[Az]

No,No,No.

The only question I would like to adress is the free will question. The Neuro-system is an immensly complex electro-chemical apparatus. A conciousness, in my understanding and the feeling of self-existance is the process of accepting sensory information, and information from other brain parts and acting accord to an existing pattern of decision making, while the neuro-chemical "algorythm" constantly changes and evolves. The entire process of that is conciousness. Free will is a rather unclear concept. if that means " the ability to make decisions" then yes, we have it, as most animal life ( though some make a rather small array of decisions, due to the narrowness of accepted information, and the lack of ability of brain connections to evolve).

Morality is a very interesting concept, but it is also rooted in the basic feelings of pain, and infant/parent relationships.

but I am just babbling.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Lars-E
How do you reconcile predestination with "For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace." John 1:16 ?

Note the word "all" above.

I am also a little concerned that you discard classical predestination with something you found on the internet, the ABC stuff. You posted this way back...and it seemed to me to be something that somebody cooked up in their kitchen. Don't you think that classical predestination has been tried and tested more thru time than something average joe made - homemade theology?

I guess you could say that I cooked this up in my kitchen before I found this article. I think though that he did a more thorough job than I did so I posted his view. I do not think there is any contradition to mankind being responsible for responding to the grace of God and the fact that mans decisions (and God's) are foreknown by God. We have all received the grace of God. But the verses prior to the one you quoted make clear it is God's will and not mans that is stronger. (i.e., Jn:1:13:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
I don't understand how that works. If our brains are made up of small electric charges, bichemical processes and various other mechanisms, at what point do they become self-regulating such that the "programming" can be overcome?

At the lowest level we have no control - how do we impose it as a some of our parts? Sure hitting your head or taking drugs causes a change, but whats to say your base mechanisms didn;t cause you to do that in the first place.

I suppose this is a question of artificial intelligence, but aren't all actions based on a set of rules, laws and random chance. How can you 'will' something to happen?


I don't doubt it is possible for people to have free will - it certainly appears that we do, but I'm inclined to think it is illusary.

Hey! Stop that! You are pre-empting me!

I was just about to post my (rather similar) thought but I had wanted everyone to post in the poll first.

Well, anyway.....

I want to try and convince you that free-will naturally implies a soul, and that (as a corollary) one cannot have free-will without 'spirituality' of some kind.

OK. Let's start from known science. As I pointed earlier (and as SD just pointed out) science does not allow free-will. There is no mechanism in science with allows one to move away from the outcomes decreed by physics. According to science all your actions are predestined to happen by the initial conditions.

Now, some people argue that quantum mechanics allows one to overcome this, because it allows outcomes which one could not predict before they happen. This is not true. Quantum mechanics allows different outcomes to happen with different probabilitied (eg. outcome A with 70% probability, outcome B with 30% probability) but the outcomes themselves are perfectly predictable. Even more damning, is that there is no mechanism with QM for changing these probabilities, so you still lose control over the outcome.

So if we accept physics as it stands, we cannot have free-will.

Now, the instant response to this is that physics may be wrong. There may be some effect manifest at very small distances which makes QM work differently. I am sure that this will be true (the physics theoies I work on every day are most certainly not complete). But no matter what theory one can think up, you will always have the same problem - it will always be deterministic in some sense (ie. as QM is), because by definition science is predictive. If a theory is non-predictive then it is not a scientific theory.

Therefore if we have free-will there must be some mechanism which transfers that will onto physical objects (our brain cells) by a non-predictive means. This is the very definition of spirituality - some part of us which falls outside the realm of scientific law - a 'soul'

Therefore if we have free-will, we must have a 'soul'.

(Of course, this does not mean that the 'soul' does not die when our body dies, but that is another topic.)

So with this reasoning, I would claim that there are are only too logical beliefs:

a) We have free-will and a soul.
Or
b) we have neither.

From the admission that we have a soul, it is a small step to accepting a God.......

Edit: Hmmm... re-reading over my post, I realize I didn't explain that very well..... but I hope you get the idea

[Az]

OK, question. describe me a creature that has a free-will, how will it behave? Generally speaking, what is this free-will you're talking about ? could you describe it?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Now, the instant response to this is that physics may be wrong. There may be some effect manifest at very small distances which makes QM work differently. I am sure that this will be true (the physics theoies I work on every day are most certainly not complete). But no matter what theory one can think up, you will always have the same problem - it will always be deterministic in some sense (ie. as QM is), because by definition science is predictive. If a theory is non-predictive then it is not a scientific theory.

Even if at levels beneath the quantum there is no predictive ability and it is non-deterministic, how can something like our brain control it?

The way I see things, if we have control over our actions, we must have control over one of two things, the micro or the macro system.

The micro - In order to harness the non-classical predicitivity for the ability to have free will we must be able to control forces at that level. As far as I know, our brains are not capable of such manipulaton

The macro - A large system can influence a small one, such as herd instinct. This is the only way I can see free will being a part of our existence - our overall thoughts guide our microsystems. But once you are in the realm of the macro you have entered the world of predeterminism. It may appear random due to chaos, but it is still a predetermined reaction.

[GePap]

Bah!

I fail to see any working theories that can come close to predicting human behavior in ANY given situation.

I do not accept that notions of physics must invariably also apply to complex biological systems, including such extremely complex systems as the human brain: No oine has shown me any evidence that is contrary to the notion that a human being can have free will without a soul. You can show me conjecture based on mathematics, but no evidence whatsoever.

Until evidence can be shown to back this mathematicaly based notion, evidence in the form of being able to predict, with some sort of high statistical probability, what the action of a human being will be given all that we know about the structure of the brain, the exact wiring and shcematic of the connections between all the neurons, the exact local biochemistry of all of those synaptic gaps, the entire life history, to each individual second of the previous experiences then I can safely continue in my belief in free will sans a soul.

Whats the difference between the illusion of free will and free will, if we can't ever see the 'reality' underneath? If we perpetually stuck in the cave, then the shadows on the wall are as good as the forms outside.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Lincoln
I guess you could say that I cooked this up in my kitchen before I found this article. I think though that he did a more thorough job than I did so I posted his view. I do not think there is any contradition to mankind being responsible for responding to the grace of God and the fact that mans decisions (and God's) are foreknown by God. We have all received the grace of God. But the verses prior to the one you quoted make clear it is God's will and not mans that is stronger. (i.e., Jn:1:13:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)

I didn't mean to be disrespectful when using the phrase "cooked up" or homemade theology...

I agree that the plans of God man has no power to overturn.

I guess all christians believe in God's foreknowledge, but that isn't the same as predestination imo. Predestination is that God has chosen some to perish and some for salvation. Right?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GePap
I fail to see any working theories that can come close to predicting human behavior in ANY given situation.

Actually, I've always thought the prediction of human behaviour is realtively easy. Profiling people has shown to be a very effective tool, as have advertising and propaganda, diplomacy etc. All rely on the understanding of human beaviour and the prediction of how someone will react.

It may not be 100% predictive in such general terms, but predicting someones behaviour or reaction to a situation is releatively easy. People who think similarly often react the same way to a stimulus - have you ever had the exact same thought/reaction on an event as someone else or had cause to say "I'm on your wavelength"?