Uncle oSAMa wants you.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Ming
NeOmega and Chris62



Enough is enough... If I see EITHER of you attacking each other again... you will get restricted with NO WARNING... NOT ONE MORE WORD OUT OF EITHER OF YOU TOWARD EACH OTHER... YOU GOT THAT!

FLASH!

HAH HAH

Saviour of the Universe!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Yes I was. Don't get me wrong. I'm not longing for a return of those monsters. I'm just pointing out that Afganistan was more stable under them, which is something you pointed out also. I'm defeinately not condoning anything they did. I'm glad they are gone.

Stability? In areas where you were a Sunni Pashtun who didn't care to educate any female relatives at home, or play music, videos, use paper bags or fly kites.

Of course, if you were a Shi'ite living in Herat, or a member of the Hazara ethnic grouping, or a Turkic Afghan, or indeed any other non-favoured ethnic minority or religious minority then life wasn't stable- laws would come and go, arbitrarily change (one year the Bamiyan statues are up, the next they're down, one year paper bags are o.k., the next they're not...
Saying that life was more stable under the Taleban is a gross over-simpification:

'The images brought back by our team, shot in secret for the most part, reveal the tragic situation of a people cut off from the world and subjected to the Taleban regime ruling through religious decrees.
The selected approach enabled us to touch upon the various aspects of a painful and unavoidable reality, common to more than 15 million people: schooling, religious practices, work, society, everything is under the heaviest supervision. An iron fundamentalism which Afghans and humanitarian NGO’s resist as best they can. Our team followed them in their daily underground life.
Interviews after interviews, we realised how mercilessly the Talebans stifled their “ fellow citizens ”. People are frightened to speak. Any opposition to the Islamic fundamentalists is dangerous. Some of these opponents have to hide, like those villagers from a Kabul district who run a mixed school. Others flaunt their opposition, like this young 25 year-old man who is not afraid to display television sets - devilish objects in this country - in his shop window. Let us add in passing that his shop was burned down last year.
The indiscriminate implementation of the Koran forces some trades to a minimal activity and subsequent impoverishment : barbers are reduced to hair-cutting, photographers to passport photographs , women to sewing and nursing ( a feminist association, RAWA, fights against this discrimination).
Dentists and doctors work in deplorable health conditions.
Those who have no other choice than to leave Afghanistan, flee to neighbouring Pakistan where the living conditions awaiting them are hardly more pleasant than those they knew in their country.
Through those testimonies, and through interviews of Talebans, mollahs in their religious schools and Pakistani officials, as well as archives from USSR war period, we follow what was the Afghan people daily life, today under the bombs. '

Directors: Djaffer Ait Aoudia & Céline Metzger
Editing: Véronique Landolfini
Producer : Patrice Barrat
Article Z © 2001
from:

http://www.articlez.fr/english/index.asp

The attack on Kuwait by Iraq was a surprise- to the Western powers who could see the troops massing on the border, and to the Kuwaitis and other interested members of the Arab League- Kuwait had bought off Saddam before, had even made generous loans to Saddam and been his ally during the Iraq/Iran War- they believed it was minatory sabre rattling to allow Saddam leeway with a schedule of overdue loan repayments. Intelligence is only worth anything if you have the people able to act upon it.

I look forward to more eulogies to the little known beneficial aspects of other regimes like the Taleban's-
the Khmer Rouge as agents of rural renewal, how Stalin and Hitler managed to promote 'classical' values rather than modernism in art, and Khomeini's Iran- how to increase attendance at mosques.

[Roland]

Mike:

"How well would a real democracy go over with our other allies in the region, who are all monarchs with dictatorial control over government..."

Not to mention Turkey, if democracy includes the Kurds. But hey, at least Iran would love it, given the shiite majority in Iraq...

"The only difference really is that the US is the party universally blamed, but far from the only party with its hands covered in blood, dirt and money."

This is a bit odd indeed. It took the US a few decades to completely eclipse and move to oblivion centuries of european colonialism and the occasional meddling we still do. How do you do it ?

About Iraqi occupation, agree 100 %. Chris, if you really believe what you've posted on Iraq, then you've been smoking too much camel dung.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Stability? In areas where you were a Sunni Pashtun who didn't care to educate any female relatives at home, or play music, videos, use paper bags or fly kites.

After 15 years of constant terrorism and civil war and complete lawlessness from the the fall of the communist government to the Taliban conquest, yes, the Taliban were a model of stability. Was it stability as we're used to in the West? No. Were the Taliban welcomed as saviors by the majority of Afganis? Yes. Was crime virtually abolished? Yes. After fifteen years of complete insecurity, the totalitarianism of the Taliban was considered a blessing. Even the State Department welcomed the Taliban takeover, even if we didn't recognize them as the official government.

The arbitrariness and capricisousness don't mean the system wasn't stable.

The Taliban are evil. That doesn't mean that they didn't give most of Afganistan a rest from the decades of brutal war. In that context, it was stable.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by molly bloom

I look forward to more eulogies to the little known beneficial aspects of other regimes like the Taleban's-
the Khmer Rouge as agents of rural renewal, how Stalin and Hitler managed to promote 'classical' values rather than modernism in art, and Khomeini's Iran- how to increase attendance at mosques.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Were the Taliban welcomed as saviors by the majority of Afganis? Yes. Was crime virtually abolished? Yes. After fifteen years of complete insecurity, the totalitarianism of the Taliban was considered a blessing.

The arbitrariness and capricisousness don't mean the system wasn't stable.

The Taliban are evil. That doesn't mean that they didn't give most of Afganistan a rest from the decades of brutal war.

Honestly, I just wonder if you read what you write.

Arbitrary: derived from mere opinion, not based on law, discretionary, capricious, despotic

Capricious:unaccountable change of mind or conduct, tendency to these, capricious: incalculable

Certain lack of stability implied there... Of course the 'system' wasn't stable. All anyone could predict was its continuing despotic nature. If you were a Muslim and expected Shari'a law, then what was the nonsense about paper bags, for instance? Ironic considering the Muslim Arabs gave the West advanced paper technology (paper based on wood pulp, not rags).
You assert a majority of the Afghans welcomed the Taleban- you don't show figures to bolster this claim. Presumably you wouldn't be including the Aghanis who didn't belong to either the Pashtun ethnic grouping or who were Shi'as- peoples such as the Hazaras, Turkmens, Tajiks, and those living on the borders with Iran, whose brand of Shi'ism was more permissive than the rigid fanatical uneducated version of Sunni Islam favoured by the Taleban. And you'd also be excluding any women with employment, in fact, any women with intelligence, for that matter, and any surving ex-communists. Given that the Taleban were still fighting the Northern Alliance in the areas of Afghanistan not under the dead hand of Taleban oppression, I'm not sure where this oasis of stability resided:

'An opposition to check the many decrees and decisions of the Taleban, their religious police and their reactionary whims is direly needed in Afghanistan. Any effective opposition would have checked the recent Taleban directives on the issues of banning of women from driving, asking UN agencies to dismiss their female members, raiding of aid agency projects including hospitals and the requirement of turbans for students, wearing of IDs by Afghan minority of Hindus etc. '

from:

http://www.institute-for-afghan-studies.org/Contributions/Commentaries/DRRoshan/2001_06_01_sound_opp.htm

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Honestly, I just wonder if you read what you write.

You fail to understand the essential parts and focus on only those things that make no sense to you. You fail to understand that after fifteen years of bandits, rape, murder, rockets falling from the sky, governemnts rising and falling, that when that stopped happening, people welcomed it.

The not being able to use paper bags and fly kites is weird. Not having Tajik guerillas rain katyushas down on your head is a blessing. Not having Pashtun warlords roll into town and rape you is a blessing. Not fearing that some bandit army is going to steal all you have left is a blessing. After fifteen years of rape, and theft, and murder, when the Taliban took control and stopped all of that, Afganis and most of the rest of the world called it stablity (including as I've repeated three times now THE US STATE DEPARTMENT).

Stop trying to measure the system through your Melbourne eyes and try and imagine what life must have been like for an Afgani villager from 1979-1994. When the Taliban ended the lawlessness of fifteen years, yes, the country experienced stablity. Would it seem stable to someone who lives in Australia? Not if you just stepped off the airplane into Kabul in 1999. But you continue to fail to appreciate that stablity is relative.

[chequita guevara]

What is interesting is you show an amazing depth of knowledge of the ME, but you show little understanding.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
[Q] You fail to understand the essential parts and focus on only those things that make no sense to you. ...

You have no idea what my life experiences have been, and instead of supplying facts- such as what the support for the Taleban was, who welcomed it, you lapse into the worse kind of patronising conservative retorts and airy assertions. My 'Melbourne' eyes, indeed...

So the U.S. State Dept. 'welcomed' the Taleban- the Taleban who were supported by the Pakistani military and intelligence services and bankrolled by Saudi money? I should be shocked, I suppose...if I didn't know of the links between the American military/secret services and Pakistan, and how America turns a blind eye to the excesses of the Saudi regime.

Yes, stability is relative- but without an agenda, without a system of law, what could Afghanis expect from the Taleban? No safety if they were from an ethnic minority not favoured by the Pashtun fundamentalists- and yet Islam is an inclusive religion, that seeks not to discriminate between races.

The stability of the grave:

News Service 171/98
AI INDEX: ASA 11/07/98
3 SEPTEMBER 1998

Afghanistan

Thousands of civilians killed
following Taleban takeover of Mazar-e Sharif

Taleban guards deliberately and systematically killed thousands of ethnic Hazara civilians during the first three days following their military takeover of Mazar-e Sharif on 8 August 1998, according to new information received by Amnesty International.

Since their arrival in Mazar-e Sharif, the Taleban have sealed the area to foreign media and independent observers. Amnesty International's information is based on testimonies from eyewitnesses and surviving members of the victims' families.

The vast majority of those killed were from the Hazara ethnic group living in Zara'at, Saidabad, and Elm Arab areas of the city. The victims were killed deliberately and arbitrarily in their homes, in the streets where their bodies were left for several days, or in locations between Mazar-e Sharif and Hairatan. Many of those killed were civilians including women, children and the elderly who were shot trying to flee the city.

"This latest information shows yet again how the Taleban disregard internationally recognized humanitarian laws on the treatment of civilians in armed conflict," Amnesty International said. "The Taleban leadership must give clear and direct orders to their troops to uphold international safeguards."

"Foreign governments bankrolling or giving military support to the Taleban bear some responsibility for failing to rein in the Taleban's worst excesses. They must publicly condemn these latest atrocities and pressure the Taleban to immediately release all prisoners held simply because of their ethnic identity and allow independent investigators into the area."

"Amnesty International repeats its call to all governments to ensure that all the warring factions in Afghanistan do not receive any military equipment or training which could be used to commit human rights abuses," the organization added.

In at least one instance, a group of prisoners were reportedly executed in front of villagers near the city of Hairatan. Some 70 men were reportedly executed in a Halal [Islamic slaughter of animals] killing ritual at the tomb of Abdul Ali Mazari.

Eleven Iranian nationals (ten diplomats and one journalist) are said to have been killed when Taleban guards entered the Iranian Consulate in Mazar-e Sharif. Despite conflicting reports about their fate, eyewitnesses say that their bodies were left in the consulate for two days, before being buried in a mass grave at the Sultan Razieh girls school.

Following their takeover, Taleban guards imposed a curfew in the city. In the Uzbek populated areas, they told people to hand in their weapons, while in the Hazara area, they told people to stay in their homes. They then entered Hazara houses one by one, killing older men and children and taking away young men without any explanation. In some houses, they also took away young women as Kaniz (maid-servant) saying they would be married off to the Taleban militia.

Detainees, reportedly totalling thousands, were transferred in military vehicles to detention centres in Mazar-e Sharif and Shebarghan and interrogated to identify their ethnic identity. Non-Hazaras were released after a few days.

Former detainees told Amnesty International how all of them were beaten, sometimes severely, during their detention. Hundreds were taken by air to Kandahar and many others taken during the night to fields in the surrounding areas of Mazar-e Sharif and Shebarghan and executed.

Severe restrictions have been imposed on the movement of Afghan people in and out of Mazar-e Sharif. Families who have managed to leave the area have told Amnesty International that they have been stopped at many checkpoints on the way. At each check point, Taleban guards stopped them asking if there were Hazaras among them and took away anyone whom they suspected of being a Hazara. Hazara men and boys younger than 12-years-old have been taken to Jalalabad prison while women and girls have been sent to Sarshahi camp.

Amnesty International is urging the Taleban to bring an end to the killing of non-combatants and prisoners by their militia, and to release all prisoners whom they have arrested solely on account of their ethnic identity.

The organization is also calling for an international body, with a clearly demonstrated independent, impartial and competent structure, to be set up to investigate these human rights abuses with a view to identifying the perpetrators and recommending means of bringing them to justice. '

Ah yes, Pashtun warlords...

[Sava]

silly Ming, at least with Saddam there, the numerous factions in that country aren't murdering each other...

I would actually give the thought of attacking Iraq a chance if there was a good reason, but there isn't.

1)Saddam has WMD and could smuggle a nuke into the country.

Big deal, that requires improving domestic security, so Saddam and every other nuke toting fool can't commit an atrocity on American soil.

2)Saddam is hording all the resources and his people are suffering...

Hmmm, actually Ming, it is our fault his people are suffering. The sanctions against Iraq prevent things like food, medical supplies, and industrial/agricultural infrastructure materials from improving that third world country.

3) Saddam poses a military threat to that region

Yes, but that powderkeg would be worse with US military involvement... anything short of a full mobilization as in WW2, would ignite that powder keg. And I don't think that Bush will be very popular if he initiates the draft and tries to send millions of Americans into Baghdad.

The biggest reason not to go to war would be the amount of casualties the US would sustain in an urban warfare environment. Remember the towns and cities in Europe during WW2? That's what Iraq will be. House to house, block by block, massive ground mobilization... massive amounts of infantry... large numbers of casualties. Is Iraq the hill we want to send an entire generation of young people to die on? ANd for what... a bunch of oil... pfft... get the Republican party outta office... 1st Bush... OIL MAN... 2nd Bush... OIL MAN... D!ck Cheney.... OIL MAN... I'm sure the deeper we dig, the more connections to big oil we will find.

FIght the Power.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Sava
The biggest reason not to go to war would be the amount of casualties the US would sustain in an urban warfare environment. Remember the towns and cities in Europe during WW2? That's what Iraq will be. House to house, block by block, massive ground mobilization... massive amounts of infantry... large numbers of casualties. Is Iraq the hill we want to send an entire generation of young people to die on? ANd for what... a bunch of oil... pfft... get the Republican party outta office... 1st Bush... OIL MAN... 2nd Bush... OIL MAN... D!ck Cheney.... OIL MAN... I'm sure the deeper we dig, the more connections to big oil we will find.

FIght the Power.

I disagree, I am not afraid of massive American casualties..... in fact this is one of the least of my concerns, as I believe Saddam would once again prove to be a pushover.

However, killing civilians, and bringing upon our head even more hatred from the Arab world, especially the man on the street, to me is illogical. If we attack we are asking to prove to ourselves in the near future how long we can rely on our strategic reserves, and pay humongous amounts per barrel to non-opec nations. Then we would understand what a "bad" economy is.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What is interesting is you show an amazing depth of knowledge of the ME, but you show little understanding.

What tunnel vision, if we had had to palyed spot the looney between the two of you, you would be the clown deluxe.