It is done...Dutch right wing governement collapses

[Saint Marcus]

touch‚

[Ribannah]

I demand that the non-voters get seats in the parliament. Then they finally have the influence they have been looking for and we won't need any more LPF's!

[Maniac]

Or just change to stemplicht (Eng.?) as in Belgium.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
some points from the program of the SGP, from their website:

no more gay marriage
no more adoption for gay couples
prostitution made illegal
people visiting hookers should be prosecuted
pornography made illegal
abortion forbidden
test on the option of abortion forbidden
euthanasia made illegal
IVF made illegal
cloning forbidden
softdrugs made illegal
closing of all "coffeeshops"
closing of all casinos
gambling made illegal
Palestinian people a direct threat to the Israeli state
shops closed on sundays

SHOPS CLOSED ON SUNDAYS!?!?!?

Guess I won't go there to get married to my gay prostitute black jack dealer.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Maniac
Or just change to stemplicht (Eng.?) as in Belgium.

What good would that do? The only reason Vlaams Blok (extreme right, racist Flemish party) is doing so good over here is because there is a voting requirement. They're causing a lot of problems, as there is a 'Cordon Sanitaire' (translation? Health block literally, but that doesn't explain it fully) to keep the Vlaams Blok out of the government. Last elections, they became the biggest party of Belgium, which has lead to a 7-party coalition, in which liberals, greens and socialists are united. Very workable government

I hope they change the Belgian voting duty to a voting right soon... it would solve a lot of our political problems. Otherwise there is but one solution to the gaining racist party: take them in a government, and show the voters exactly how big a mess they will make of it... but don't be surprised if Belgium cancels his membership of the EU in that period, and starts to deport gays into concentration camps.

DeepO

[Maniac]

What good would that do?

It's more democratic. People who normally wouldn't vote because they have no faith in politics now are forced to vote. That way they get a voice and their problems must be solved to prevent extreme-right. Otherwise they can just be ignored for a long time.

And the duty to vote is far from the only reason Vlaams Blok is doing so well...

And except in Antwerp they are far from the biggest party in Belgium. I believe they are the third biggest in Flanders. A huge difference. Where did you get that information?? The reason why we have a 7-party coalition is 1) because there is for each ideology a similar party for Flanders and the Walloon Provinces and 2) because nobody wanted the Christian-democrats in the government. Vlaams Blok didn't have anything or very little to do with the government formation.

[DeepO]

Hmm... I have to correct myself, it seems that you are right, they are the 3rd party in Flanders in the election of 1999 (last governmental election) with 15% of the votes. They did better in last elections for the cities and provinces, but the www.fgov.be site doesn't have general figures on that.
However, Antwerp isn't the only city where Vlaams Blok has gotten biggest, Gent, Vilvoorde, Oostende and a few others have the same problem.

But I don't agree that a duty to vote will be democratic: many people voice their protest in voting for Vlaams Blok. There is no option to vote against voting, it is still against the law to vote blanco, and many people go to the ballotting boxes because they have to, not because they have an opinion on who should run the country. I don't call that democratic, I want the right to choose... (and yes, I would choose to vote).

Oh, besides, we have a 7 party coalition because the Christen democrats decided that they wanted to be an opposition party, and even if they were involved we would still need at least 6 parties to get to a majority. That is a 50% majority, not a 66% majority which is needed to change the constitution. If Vlaams Blok would be under consideration by the other parties, a 5 party coalition would be enough (you always need the PS, so also the SP, and either VLD or CD&V could complement with their Welsh counterparts)

And my personal prediction: Agalev and Ecolo (the two green parties for both languages) won't be part of the next government, at least not together with the liberals. Which means a government of liberals, socialists, and christen democrats together... it's been a while since these were all part of one government

DeepO

[Saint Marcus]

so the solution: stemplicht, with the option for a blank vote.

[DeepO]

Well.. next problem, where do the blanks go to? In the current Belgian system, they are given to the largest parties, instead of being ignored. Which has the countrary effect of what most blank voters want: they don't realize it, but they are supporting the government instead of voting against it.

This is different from votes to parties that don't reach the electoral treshold: these votes are simply ignored from the totals, and all parties are treated in the same ratio. Much better of course, so if you really want to voice protest, you need to vote on a party you're sure that won't get elected.

In my younger years, when I was weary of the political climate in Belgium, I did vote for WOW or Waardig Ouder Worden, a party for people above 65. No way they were going to win

DeepO

[germanos]

Oh Oh, a threadjack by Belgians.
Get your own Thread, or vote for a party that wants to join beautifull Holland. Especially get lost with the Vlaams Blok, let them rot in their own ridiculously small minds and towns.

On Topic:
Obligatory vote is not going to solve anything. When people decide their vote is useless, let them. Obliging them to vote is not going to change their feelings, nor does it give any credit to their vote.

In any case: who is going to determine the blank vote they found was yours?

As it is now, if you vote Blanco, nobody is going to notice, since those votes are omitted in the final result. If you decide NOT to vote, at least THAT decision is reflected in the results, since one of the major issues when looking at results of elections is the turn-out of voters.

And the LPF is the perfect example that protest voters always find their way. We have had several of those nut-parties, and all made a big mess. Luckily the real Nazi-weirdo's never get any significant vote, and the LPF was weird, but in no way anti-democratic or in any sense extreme-right.

[Hueij]

...or in any sense extreme-right.

Oh? I seem to recall a certain remark by Saint Pim about a certain "backward" religion. Fairly extreme in my book. And why do you think so many people voted LPF? Not because of the LPF's stance on the state of Dutch politics but because of Fortuyns stance on foreigners...

[Ribannah]

The blanks, like the non-voters, should earn seats.
The seats will stay empty.
That'll teach the politicians to care!

[DeathByTheSword]

i am relief that LPF is gone but now we will have very strong CDA with a VVD that i dont like......... dutch politics Sux

[DeepO]

Originally posted by germanos
Oh Oh, a threadjack by Belgians.

Not intended... but I can't help it that I'm interested in the opinion of Kezen on Dutch politics

As it is now, if you vote Blanco, nobody is going to notice, since those votes are omitted in the final result. If you decide NOT to vote, at least THAT decision is reflected in the results, since one of the major issues when looking at results of elections is the turn-out of voters.

exactly... that's why I want to change it here.

And the LPF is the perfect example that protest voters always find their way. We have had several of those nut-parties, and all made a big mess. Luckily the real Nazi-weirdo's never get any significant vote, and the LPF was weird, but in no way anti-democratic or in any sense extreme-right.

Well, the LPF might not be Vlaams Blok, but surely some of their ideas would be considered extreme right. Plus, it weren't the protest votes that made them so big, but more the sympathy vote... A lot of people I know that didn't care for the LPF nor for any other political party voted on it because of the murder of PF, knowing too well that they shouldn't expect a stable government from it. That's the strange part, nearly everyone agreed at the start of the government that this was not going to work, and still they did it. Sometimes your politics is even more wacko then ours

DeepO

[kolpo]

Originally posted by germanos
or vote for a party that wants to join beautifull Holland

Then we must vote for the Vlaams Blok? They are the only party that wants that Flanders joins the Netherlands(and Walon France).

Back on topic: I agree that forcing people to vote is more democratic, it are not only the anti-political people who don't vote but also poor/weak/very old people will in general vote less then rich/well educated people. Those poor/weak/very old have other thinsg to care about then going to vote, so unless you force them will that group be underrepresented(that's why a high number of people going to vote often helps the left).

So not only the wacko parties but also the very social parties will benefit, I think that SP will benefit too.