Another reason why the UN is a joke...

[Boris Godunov]

Any defense of Tiananmen Square is pretty ridiculous, come on.

[NeOmega]

If you could imagine for one moment, 300,000student protestors on the Washington D.C. mall for 3 months, protesting they want communism......

How do you think the U.S. government would have reacted?

Honestly.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by NeOmega
If you could imagine for one moment, 300,000student protestors on the Washington D.C. mall for 3 months, protesting they want communism......
.

First, by the time the PLA troops entered the square on June 3, the crowd had dwindled to possibly as few as 5000, and was nowhere near 300,000

Second, your "protesting they want communism" statement contradicts your assertion that the students were merely protesting corruption.

[monkspider]

I agree that Tianamen Square is indefinsible under virtually any standards, but his point that the US would have reacted violently in a similar situation is valid.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Second, your "protesting they want communism" statement contradicts your assertion that the students were merely protesting corruption.

To your first point I will capitulate.

To the second. 300,000 had shown up to protest corruption. Perhpas the last 5,000 were the ones there wanting democracy.

I am of the belief, if I was born and raised in communist China, I would make a damn fine communist, and I would be a great asset to my country.

I was born in the United States of America. I make a damn fine American in my opinion. I hold our free market and bill of rights as religiously as a christian holds the Bible.
I do not believe the majority, (as a democracy would require), of Chinese, want a Democracy. I believe most of them hold Communist ideals dear to themselves and their identities.... and by most I mean more than 51%. I have met a few exchange students from high school. Believe me, I have had at length conversations with them... and once past the culture shock, it was quite amazing how, (in American terms), "blindly" they accept communism with Chinese characteristics.

I am no communist, only because I find the philosophy completely un-American. But I see no reason why communist and capitalist nations cannot live side by side in peace and harmony.

Besides humanity's incessant want to preach.

[Chris 62]

Re: Re: Sometimes you just have to answer

Originally posted by monkspider
True, but as my post later clarified, Vietnam itself wasn't a matter of great interest for the USA. But if the "example" of Vietnam spread, possibly even as far as Japan, it would create a very problematic situation for American buisness interests.

Which is a DIFFERENT answer from your intial answer.

Why else would the USA be there? To spread freedom and Democracy?

You just contridicted yourself, YOU sated the reason was "economic Imperialism", when shown this was incorrect, you replied with lol smiley.
No anwser at all.
The US was there as part of the Truman doctrone, attempting to stop the spread of Communist states, and the South's government wasn't as unpopular as many revisionist historians now like to claim, as the NLF found out during the TeT offensive.

What Democracies did the USSR stifle in South America or Africa or Asia? The USSR tended to allow China to handle things in Asia.
The USA has crushed democracies time and time again in latin America, killing millions of innocents in the process, all to prop military dictatorships in the name of US buisness interests.

I notice you didn't bother to comment on Europe, but you also show a lack of vision in the far east.
North Korea was a Russian puppet, China commited forces on Stalin's urging, as Mao was an ardent follower of him, the break between the two came after Stalin's death, and he was denouced, Mao took exception to this.
Also, North Vietnam was a RUSSIAN puppet, Ho didn't trust nor like China, he felt and feared they would invade on the slightest pretext.
Russia spent a lot of time subverting South West Africa, as well as Ethiopia and Somalia.
I might also add that the US never toppled a democratic South American governemnt, rigged elections followed by a Communist government is not a "Democracy", your entire model is flawed and incorrect.

Respectfully, I would say the same to you.

WHich is why I do, and you should not.

Wrong, Stalinism was successful to a large degree. There is a good reason why the Soviet Union was referred to as the second world.

It suceeced at the point of a gun, and only on that backs of millions of virtual slaves.

It took third world peasents and despite crippling civil war and two world wars, improved the standard of living for the average soviet quite considerably.

A standard far below the lowest western nation, hardly an achievment.

Of course, when the Soviet Union whent capitalist, it took all those Russian workers back to the third world, but we're not supposed to say that. I appologize. I know any success that Stalinism had doesn't justify it. But American leaders at the time were quite concerned with the ammount of economic progress the Stalinist model can create in a short period of time. At least, up until the late 70s or so, when things started to stagnate.

Things stagnated because more and more dissadents were formenting rebellion against the Soviet system, led by men such as Andrei Sakharov and many others began a wave of protests that reached the west, and showed the cracks in the Soviet sysetm.

Despite this statement going against all offical documents and so forth to the contrary, I will go ahead and humor you: What, pray tell, was the reason for USA intervention then?

Again the silly lol from the silly communist.
You had it right when you alluded the the Trumen doctrone.
You have it WRONG when you attempt to tie this into an economic stratum.

The USA is in de facto control of a number of SA countries.

A bombastic statement not supported in any fact.

Such as Columbia, where we have been propping up a pro-US government called the most corrupt in the world for years.

As opposed to a giany drug cartel that has been subverting it for years with cocaine money.
Obviously the concept of cause and effect doesn't register on you.

All of this is no secret or bizarre conspiracy theory.

You saying it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be so.

It's all on the public record.

My turn...
There are NO SUCH "public" records that state the US controls puppet regimes, they exisit only in the minds of looney leftists.

Which is something I suggest that you make yourself more famillar with.

Sorry, "The Dailey Worker" isn't the most interesting thing in the world to read.

Well I was speaking more in terms of the post war world. But Stalin, according to most accepted estimates, killed no more than one million people.

WHAT?????????
A blatent lie on your part.

These various 60 million estimates are preposterous and come from cold war period pieces attempting to demonize the USSR by any means nescarry.

Yes, the bastards resorted to the truth, damn them!

That would have been such a huge percentage of the population the USSR would have collapsed in a week.

More bull, between the late 20 and early 50s, excluding WWII, millions of Soviet citizens simply vanished, never to be seen again, the dissidents speak of the millions murdered quite forcefully.

In any event, if you look at the USA's record of intervention.

This ought to be fun.

You will find millions and millions of innocents dead.

Where?

4 million in vietnam alone, and a few million here and there in various latin american or third world countries.

More pure bullsh*t, the NLF istself, from it's own sources claimed the total number of civillians killed in 10 years of war with the US was less then 400,000, NOWHERE near 4 million.

The post-war USA would put Stalin to shame, for sure.

More lies from you.
As I suspected, you would just say something, and expect the gullible to pick up on it.
That is the Stalinist way.

Respectfully, I suggest that you do the same in regards to what the USA has done.

I can quote chapter and verse every intervention, force level, and end result, and back it with source material.
Can you?

I am fully aware that Stalin was a bastard and I don't try to deny this.

First correct thing you have said.
[quote] Stalin was no better than the USA, and set back the cause of socialism for years.[/qoute]No better...HE WAS A MILLION TIMES WORSE!

As a christian, I find any kind of mass-murder deplorable, and that applies to the actions of the USA as well.

To bad you failed to provide a SINGLE example.

Simply because it is my home country doesn't mean I should try to turn a blind eye to it's actions.

You should try and find some factual accounts, and work from there.
There are quite a few, but in no instance are 'millions' of deaths involved, dispruse yourself of these silly notions.

[monkspider]

Re: Re: Re: Sometimes you just have to answer

Originally posted by Chris 62
Which is a DIFFERENT answer from your intial answer.

What?! It's essentialy the same thing I have been saying all along.

You just contridicted yourself, YOU sated the reason was "economic Imperialism", when shown this was incorrect, you replied with lol smiley.

??? America's role in Inochina was Economic Imperialism. It was an attempt to keep the majority of Asian nations in the open sphere of economics. All of this is common knowledge repeated time and time again in various government documents. I'm honestly a bit taken aback that you still try to argue with me on this point.
No anwser at all.

I notice you didn't bother to comment on Europe, but you also show a lack of vision in the far east.

Incorrect, it is you who are showing a blatant lack of vision by confusing our economic interests with benolevent intentions of spreading democracy and freedom.

Russia spent a lot of time subverting South West Africa, as well as Ethiopia and Somalia.

Yes, but in virtually all cases, these third world countries were never democracies to start with, which is what we were talking about initially, America has toppled numerous democracies in it's pursuit of it's economic interests.

I might also add that the US never toppled a democratic South American governemnt,

Incorrect, America has overthrown democracies in El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicarauga., Dominican Republic, Grenada. In some cases, these countries have had their democracies overthrown multiple times. For example, 1954 we managed to overthrow guatemal's one attempt at Democracy. There was a new-deal style, reformist-capitalist democratic regime which we managed to overthrow, leaving a veritable hell on earth. And we have repeatedly intervened to keep it that way.

A standard far below the lowest western nation, hardly an achievment.

Well, things in the Soviet Union by the 60s or 70s weren't that much lower than that of the west. In fact, the average Soviet had a higher gross anual income than I did growing up. And I'm an American, if that tells you anything. It really is pretty impressive considering Russia used to be a country of third world peasents.

Things stagnated because more and more dissadents were formenting rebellion against the Soviet system, led by men such as Andrei Sakharov and many others began a wave of protests that reached the west, and showed the cracks in the Soviet sysetm.

Well, things are infinitely more complicated than that. I supose it is the natural patriotic response to assume that our protests led to the collapse of the Soviet Union and I'm sure they affected things to some degree. But in reality, there was much more to it.

A bombastic statement not supported in any fact.

You should read at least the next sentence following one of my statements before dismissing it as not being supported by fact.

You saying it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be so.

The same holds true for you, friend.

There are NO SUCH "public" records that state the US controls puppet regimes, they exisit only in the minds of looney leftists.

Incorrect, I am fairly suprised that you disagree with me on this point. There are interesting government documents in this vein that exist in vast quanities. It is no fault of your own that you haven't encountered them yourself though, I suppose you are busy with your flag-waving and so forth. But without trying to dig through too much material, here is quick quote from a US congressional paper describing the conditions in El Salvador, a democracy the USA was taking action against.

"The refugees describe what appears to be a systematic campaign conducted by the security forces of El Salvador to deny and rural base for guerilla operations in the norrth. By terrorinzing and depopulating villages in the region, they have sought to isolate the guerillas and create problems of logistics and food supply....The Salvadoran method of "drying up the ocean" involes, according to those who have fled from it's violence, a combination of murder, torture, rape, the burning of crops in order to create starvation conditions, and a prorgam of general terorism and harassment."

Here were strategies remarkably similar to what we employed in Vietnam. And to give you a little bit of background, the US stopped the press from covering this story any further after attrocties started taking place. So the congressional delagate which investigated was quite shocked by what was going on. Which was interesting because the story of El Salvador having a Democracy gained a great deal of press coverage. But government officals didn't want a repeat of the "vietnam syndrome", that is, where the people protest their country taking place in mass murder, and genocide, and so on and so forth. It's interesting that the government had an actual name for it, but I suppose that's another topic.

Sorry, "The Dailey Worker" isn't the most interesting thing in the world to read.

No one needs publications like the "Daily Worker" if you're willing to look below the surface of mainstream news a bit.

More pure bullsh*t, the NLF istself, from it's own sources claimed the total number of civillians killed in 10 years of war with the US was less then 400,000, NOWHERE near 4 million.
More lies from you.

[/QUOTE]

Incredible, even the most conservative estimates include around 2 million civillians killed. The most widely accepted numbers are 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000. I'm not sure where you get your estimates, but I'll have to assume it was but a mere folly on your part. I suggest you make sure you are absolutely right in the future before dismissing one's claims as "pure bullsh*t".

[Chris 62]

This is all we need address:

"No one needs publications like the "Daily Worker" if you're willing to look below the surface of mainstream news a bit."

In other words, you believe what you want to without a shread of proof.

I could continue the post by post thing, but to what end?
We are both convinced we are right, so we leave it at that.

[monkspider]

Fair enough Chris. But I don't see how my willingness to look beyond what the mainstream press publishes equates to me "believing what I want to without a shred of proof."

Godspeed, old friend, godspeed.

[Lincoln]

I don't know how this turned into another "evil" US diatribe. The question was about the UN and the absurdity of assigning Libya to head the human rights commission. What does that have to do with the United States? It wasn't our idea. I guess we just get the blame by default now...

[Drake Tungsten]

Incorrect, America has overthrown democracies in El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicarauga., Dominican Republic, Grenada.

I know for a fact that the government in Grenada was not a democracy. I think the chances are better than average that the rest of your examples are also bull****. Still think that America was involved in East Timor?

[monkspider]

See above Drake.
As for East Timor, the USA supplied over 90% of the war material as well as crucial diplomatic aid in an Indoneisan invasion of Timor in 76. They continued to supply military aide even when the attrocities taking place were well known, and even blocked UN attempts to try to deter aggression on Indonesia's part.
In 1977 when the death toll was well over 200,000, Jimmy Carter approved increased military aide to Indonesia to drive it even higher.
In government telegrams, UN ambassador Daniel Moynihan bragged about the American-backed indonesians killing 10% of the population of East Timor.
It was a classic example of American hypocrisy on the issue of human rights and a terrible tragedy.

[Drake Tungsten]

In 1977 when the death toll was well over 200,000, Jimmy Carter approved increased military aide to Indonesia to drive it even higher.

Ahh, yes. We all know that Jimmy Carter is a butcher....

BTW, you didn't deal with Grenada. How exactly was Grenada a democracy?

[flash9286]

i got banned for making A un is a joke thread wonder why this thread wasnt closed Ming are you biased againest me.