Another reason why the UN is a joke...

[monkspider]

Drake, how are any of the incidents I described "bull**** progaganda" unless "bull**** propaganda" is expanded to include "unpleasent deaths that we try to hide under the carpet".
Perhaps the deaths of non-Americans are of little consequence to you, but that doesn't make them "bull****". In fact it's quite absurd and heartless to try to declare them so.

A few million here, a few million there, no country is even in the same league as the United States in terms of violating human rights and crushing Democracy.
I know that kind of thinking go against the offical state line quite dramatically, but one thing that I will praise my country for is for allowing relative freedom of information. If you desire to seek out the truth it can be found, albeit rather difficultly in some cases.

[Drake Tungsten]

No one's hands are clean when it comes to human rights, Boris. However, only an idiot would claim that America is being hypocritical for opposing Libyan chairmanship of the UNCHR.

Letting Libya head up a human rights commision is a ****ing joke and anyone who really cares about human rights should be pissed off about this. While people like you are *****ing about America's occasional slip up, countries like China are systematically raping their citizens human rights and using countries like Libya as a shield from international condemnation. You're really standing up for the good guys here, aren't you?

[Goingonit]

Boris, the United States has as sullied a record as any 1st-world country, but look what you're saying here. Get some perspective. This is Libya, we're talking about! Qadaffi shoots down airliners for ****s and giggles! If it were in the US' position at the moment, believe me, you'd have bigger things to worry about than racial discrimination in universities.

EDIT: I just realized I made nearly the same post as Drake.

Monkspider, not in the same league? Once again, look at what you're talking about. If you posted that in China, they'd shoot you. Iraq gases its ethnic minorities. It's fine to decry America's failings, but please, realize that there are far worse things going on.

[Drake Tungsten]

Decided not to answer my East Timor question, eh monkspider?

As for the other ones, they were all unfortunate results of the Cold War. I'm not proud of them and wish they hadn't happened, but I also don't think that the U.S. set out to violate human rights. Intent matters to me, but it doesn't to other people. Maybe you don't care about intent; I don't really know. At any rate, nothing good can come from a discussion of those conflicts. I've done it before and it never solves anything.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
While people like you are *****ing about America's occasional slip up, countries like China are systematically raping their citizens human rights and using countries like Libya as a shield from international condemnation. You're really standing up for the good guys here, aren't you?

Wait. YOU are whitewashing America's actions, and you expect ME to feel guilty for pointing out the plank in America's eye. Please. "Slip ups" indeed. Oops! We just formented a coup! Oops! We're propping up a murdering dictator! Oops! We're subverting democracy abroad!

I'm not defending Libya's record. But how would you propose, given the UN charter and rules, Libya be stopped from assuming this position?

Standing up for the good guys...there aren't any good guys, that's the point. We're not in a Western here. Reality check please?

[Drake Tungsten]

If you really don't think that there are good and bad guys in the world, then I weep for you. You won the lottery at birth and can't even appreciate it...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Goingonit
If it were in the US' position at the moment, believe me, you'd have bigger things to worry about than racial discrimination in universities.

Hmmm, I don't think that was anything I brought up. My points were a bit more important, I believe.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
If you really don't think that there are good and bad guys in the world, then I weep for you. You won the lottery at birth and can't even appreciate it...

What does the first sentence have to do with the second?

I didn't say there were no good guys or bad guys in the world. I said that, in this instance, we're not the guys in the white hat.

And I believe I specifically addressed the latter sentence, as irrelevant as it is. Unless you're making that tired old cunard argument that if you make a criticism of the U.S. actions then you're a commie traitor who should leave?

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm not defending Libya's record. But how would you propose, given the UN charter and rules, Libya be stopped from assuming this position?

And what is so great about the UN charter that we have to operate within it?

I think that the argument being made implicitly is that the UN is deeply flawed, precisely because it allows countries like Libya to hold such positions.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Goingonit


And what is so great about the UN charter that we have to operate within it?

I think that the argument being made implicitly is that the UN is deeply flawed, precisely because it allows countries like Libya to hold such positions.

I wouldn't assert the UN is perfect, but I think its benefits to the world have far outweighed the drawbacks. I think it is PRECISELY because Libya is becoming head of the commission that the presence of nations like the U.S. and Europe are vital. The U.S. just needs to stop its sanctimonious bullying of other nations and whining about not getting its way 100% of the time. It is precisely such behavior that led to our humiliating loss of our seat on the HR Commission in the first place.

[Drake Tungsten]

I didn't say there were no good guys or bad guys in the world. I said that, in this instance, we're not the guys in the white hat.

Ohh, how could I possibly interpret this statement:

Standing up for the good guys...there aren't any good guys, that's the point.

as you saying that there are no good guys.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Hmmm, I don't think that was anything I brought up. My points were a bit more important, I believe.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood institutionalized racial discrimination.

But the point I was trying to make is that the magnitude and visibility of American human rights failings are exacerbated by its large and visible position in the world.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I didn't say there were no good guys or bad guys in the world. I said that, in this instance, we're not the guys in the white hat.

Ohh, how could I possibly interpret this statement:

Standing up for the good guys...there aren't any good guys, that's the point.

as you saying that there are no good guys.

Because you're taking it out of the context of the argument, maybe?

[Drake Tungsten]

I wouldn't assert the UN is perfect, but I think its benefits to the world have far outweighed the drawbacks.

With that logic, you should support the United States. The benefits of a strong America far outweigh the drawbacks.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Goingonit


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood institutionalized racial discrimination.

But the point I was trying to make is that the magnitude and visibility of American human rights failings are exacerbated by its large and visible position in the world.

I don't recall using the word 'racial.'

American human rights failings are real. And extends far beyond the scope of what I mentioned when one considers US actions abroad. Our propping up of Pinochet is just one small example of an international pattern that is a BIG part of our problems with anti-Americanism in the first place.

I would LOVE for America to live up the highschool textbook image of being perfect. But until that myth becomes a reality, I am going to speak out about what I think is wrong and why it should change.