Bloodbath in Gaza

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned
Well GePap, in other words, the Arabs are blocking integration of the Palestinians into their societies. How they do this? Deny citizenship/work permits/jobs/right to buy land/the right to live out of the camps? How?

The many of the ways in which you have stated: Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria must stay in the camps, and can't become citizens. neither can the Palestinians working as migrant laborers in the Gulf States, which obviously allow them work, but little else, and actually thousands of palestinians were thrown out of the gulf states after the Gulf War. its easier for a Palestinian to become a US citzen than a lebanese citizen.

Cyber:
arab treatment of palestinians is inexcusible. it doesn't matter if they were removed from their lands by israel: they shoul have been treated better by the neihboring states, specially since these camps have become villages after 50 years, and they are squalid villages at that.

[CyberGnu]

GePap, inexcusable how? Because they won't make them citizens? I don't really know much about the camps in Syria and Lebanon, but the refugees in Jordan (which constitute about 6/7 of the 3.5 million refugees) can move around as they want. The only thing that is required is for them to be able to pay their own way...

Look, I see it somewhat like meeting a homeless person. Does it make me a bad person if I don't give him any spare change? I don't think so. It might make me a good person if I do, but I don't feel I have an obligation to do so.

[GePap]

states have the obligation to provide certain services for individual in their terriroty, even non-citizens. Two generations of palestinians, at leat, have been born in Lebanon and Syrai, yet they are denied educational opportunies, work opportunies, and severely discriminated against. Jordan has, out of necesity, integrated the palestinians. The Lebanese hate the palestinians, blasme them for helping to start the civil war there, and the Syrians don't care for them much either.
To me, it is not only the shabby treatment, which is enough to condem them, but the utter hypocrasy, telling themselves they are helping the Palestinian cause while keeping them shoeless, poor and ignorant in shanty villages. Would they not further the palestinains cause even more by integrating these hard-working, capable people: making both themselves and the palestinians richer and more successful, thus making them more capable of really helping the Palestinians?

[CyberGnu]

With what money?

Jordan has an annual budget of $6billion. There is no money to spend on 3 million refugees! Do you have any idea how money it would take to buy land, buy houses, provide education and medical care to 3 million people?

Look, I'm essentially in the same situation as the jordanian refugees, with the (admittedly huge) difference that I can go back to Sweden at any point. But as long as I live in the US, I can get NOTHING from the US goverment. As long as I pay my own way, I'm welcome to stay. But that is as far as it goes. If I get unemplyed, the US has not obligation to help me.

I don't think that makes the US hypocritical or morally corrupt, in any sense.

[CyberGnu]

BTW, Al'kimsya, what's with the name and the flag?

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
BTW, Al'kimsya, what's with the name and the flag?

I liked the flag, and since Papua New Guinea was the last country with cannibals my disgust of humanity found it somewhat appropriate to honor this. As for the name, it's arabic, the same word as "alchemy" and a word play on my forename.

[CyberGnu]

Well, that was one of the weirdest motivations I've heard in a while...

I like it!!!!

Alchemy, huh? Into chemistry?

[Saint Marcus]

but wouldn't they have tried to get out of the building through a door on the other side where no fighting was occurring?

who says the fighting was just on one end? there may have been Israeli troops/choppers/tanks on the other side. Or if that wasn't the case, the Hamas may have blocked the other exit.

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Alchemy, huh? Into chemistry?

Not very, more an interest/fascination (whatever Mr. Spock would have said) in mysticism and the occult.

[chequita guevara]

CyberGnu, your example would be more accurate if it had us driving all Puerto Ricans out of the US. Why should Latin America shoulder the burden. Well, on the one hand, becuase they claim to be insolidarity with the Palestinian people. On another hand, the Arab states are just as responsible for creating the refugee problem as Israel. If they hadn't invaded in '48, most Palestinians would be living in Israel right now (since Israel would have just conquered everything except the areas the Jordains clung onto).

The Arab states have also blocked the integration into their own societies of refugees living there. Palestinians were never allowed to get on with their lives in Jordan or Lebanon or anywhere else.

[Ned]

The refugee situation is simply bizzare. The world community has largely ingore the refugees for 50 years, focusing instead on evil Israeli's and the noble PLO. The UN is obviously largely responsible for the continued misery of the refugees. It should have decades ago called on the Arab nations that made war on Israel to settle the refugees in their own lands.

But, as you said, Che, this would have taken the pressure of of the evil Israelis, the pressure to punish them for being evil, for being Jews. So the UN persisted in its orginal position passed in 1948 that Israel must accept return of the refugees!

But it is easy to see, that this UN policy has prevented peace for 50 years. The UN demand would essentially destroy Israel. The UN knows this, but persists anyway. The UN is the obstacle to peace.

Why aren't more people angry about this. Why doesn't the PLO condemn the UN and the Arab nations for lack of action to improve the lot of the refugees?

Why?

[Sirotnikov]

Isn't it nice to ignore the fact that several thousands palestinian refugees were slaughtered by lebanese and syrians when they first arrived in 1947, 48, 49?

Isn't it nice to ignore the fact that lebanon makes things such as educations fare some 5 times greater for palestinian refugees, than for lebanese?


gepap - the palestinians (PLO to be exact) did do all they could to flare up the civil war. Infact, the PLO enjoyed it alot, and rose to power.

[CyberGnu]

Chegitz,

On another hand, the Arab states are just as responsible for creating the refugee problem as Israel. If they hadn't invaded in '48, most Palestinians would be living in Israel right now (since Israel would have just conquered everything except the areas the Jordains clung onto).

That example doesn't work. Look, if someone steals my wallet and break my leg giving chase, the person responsible for my broken leg is still the thief who stole my wallet in the first place.

Blaming the arab world for reacting to theft of arab land just isn't right.

As for the solidarity, you do have a point. I think the arab world has convinced itself that intergrating the refugees would be doing them a disfavor, however.

You know, just like most people who wont give a quarter to a homeless justifies it by thinking 'he would only be buying booze with it anyway'. (Myself included.) See what I mean?

[CyberGnu]

The UN is obviously largely responsible for the continued misery of the refugees.

Well, indirectly. They never opposed Israels aggression in the first place.

While I have issues with the UN, it is still the best bet we have, though...

[Sirotnikov]

You know, just like most people who wont give a quarter to a homeless justifies it by thinking 'he would only be buying booze with it anyway'. (Myself included.) See what I mean?

Instead, a person would just shoot the homeless, to rid the world of him, like Lebanon murdered several hundred Palestinian refugees, to stop the rest from coming.

Great