Bloodbath in Gaza

[Ned]

Originally posted by axi

Ned:


Funny thing for you to mention the KLA in this case, since your argument provides the best excuse ever to Milosevich's troops, who, if the KLA killed a policeman, would be justified to shell Albanian villages. Is it or is it not the same situation? Yet I don't see any NATO aircraft bombing Tel Aviv...

Axi, I never argued that killing a policeman would justify shelling a villiage, as we saw happen in Syria. (And, BTW, were you calling for Assad's head for that one?) I was just trying to point out by analogy that Israel's only solution for a motar attack on its settlers was something other than complete withdrawal from Gaza.

Gaza presents Israel with a major problem. It is density populated so any military action whatsoever will undoubtedly cause civilian casualties. But to do nothing in the face of motar attacks from Gaza is also an unacceptable alternative.

Hamas is also to blame for the civilian casualties. If they launch attacks from Gaza and take refuge in densely populated neighborhoods, they deliberately place the lives of the residents of Gaza in danger. This is why such actions by combatants are outlawed by Geneva conventions.

I think it is appropriate here to condemn Hamas for the motar attack on civilians, condemn them for taking refuge in densely populated civilian areas, call for Israel to use less firepower in attempting any arrests, and condemn Israel for what appears to be a significant number of civilian casualties in the current operation.

But more than this. The UN should take a position on Hamas and other terrorist groups killing Israeli civilians. It should not only condemn the acts of terror, but pledge to arrest and try for war crimes those responsible, including their leadership. It should call for a UN force to go into Palestine to replace the Israeli's for the purpose of arresting terrorists and preventing further acts of terror.

As to the composition of the force, I nominate the Dutch to lead the effort. I especially would like to see Saint Marcus lead the squad of Dutch commando's into Hamas' HQ to make the arrest of the Hamas leader. Wouldn't that be poetic justice for his constant condemnation of the Israeli's?

[Saint Marcus]

It should call for a UN force to go into Palestine to replace the Israeli's for the purpose of arresting terrorists and preventing further acts of terror.

Israel will never allow this, they've already said that they refuse to allow any foreign military units on Israeli soil to end this conflict.

It should not only condemn the acts of terror, but pledge to arrest and try for war crimes those responsible, including their leadership.

Give the Pals their own state, and 99% of the terracts will stop. The resulting 1% can be dealt with, either by the PA (who will have no reason to support terrorists after they get their own state), or indeed by international peacekeepers (as has been done in the former Yugoslavia and Macedonia).

As to the composition of the force, I nominate the Dutch to lead the effort.

We're already leading a mission in former Yugoslavia (or Macedonia, one of the two), I believe. We're not equiped to lead two operations at once.

I especially would like to see Saint Marcus lead the squad of Dutch commando's into Hamas' HQ to make the arrest of the Hamas leader.

Can't. I've been told my back's too weak to join the KCT.

Wouldn't that be poetic justice for his constant condemnation of the Israeli's?

Now that's just cheap.

I only constantly condemn the USA. Israel is a sideline issue

[Ned]

I think Israel is resistant to peacekeepers because peacekeeping forces in the past have largely been ineffective in suppressing terrorist acts. The UN once had a peacekeeping force in Gaza. But it still permitted Arafat to attack freely from Gaza.

But a UN force might be effective if it had a declared enemy and the US were invovled. The UN force in Bosnia seems to be effective because it is actively looking for war criminals.

Sorry to hear about your back, SM. Undoubtedly you would love the chance to kick some war criminal butt.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Frogger
He doesn't usually defend it, though...

I never do normally, that's why when I write articles, I have an editor.

I find it funny that long after all of that was resolved, Tuby and others brought it up again!

As for dear Boris, at least I don't link dozens of hearsay articles and claim that proves my case, as someone named for a Russian national hero is want to do.

I can wear my dunce cap happily, because this thread didn't degenerate into the norm, and is actually still interesting.

Now, on to a post for me:
Axi, I can understand that being a Communist, you have a differing viewpoint, but fascism (<--Spelled corectly to avoid any more abuse!) and Zionism are not even remotely the same, fascism was started by an idiot Italian years after Zionism was born, and the Zionist wanted a Jewish homeland in their ancestrial home, not an Empire based on former glories.
Also, Israel is not a one party dictatorship, as the fascists were, it's a democracy.
Calling a jew a Nazi or fascist is both hurtful AND inaccurate all at the same time.
If they REALLY were similar, the Jews would level any city that dares to oppose them, and nothing world opinion says could change that.

[orange]

a state based on what race or religion owning the land and being the citizens is just as fascisistic (in the Germany sense) as purging all those that aren't the same ethnicity as you from a land.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Chris 62
As for dear Boris, at least I don't link dozens of hearsay articles and claim that proves my case, as someone named for a Russian national hero is want to do.

I don't know who you are talking about--is jimmytrick Russian?

At any rate, finding support for one's claims is better than making unfounded and blatantly false assertions and not bothering to try to back them up. Like, I dunno, saying Roanoke was razed to the ground...

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Chris 62
I find it funny that long after all of that was resolved, Tuby and others brought it up again!

Point 1: Tubes is acceptable, Tuby is not.
Point 2: I addressed them as I came to the by reading the thread in order, and I mentioned that after I was current on the thread.
Point 3: Bare or Bear had not been resolved.

[Boris Godunov]

You bear a burden, you bare your soul.

[GePap]

From Haaretzdaily.com

Always a fighter, always a terrorist

By Amira Hass




These are the rules of war as laid down over the last two years:

A Palestinian is a terrorist when he attacks Israeli civilians on both sides of the Green Line - in Israel and the territories - and when he attacks Israeli soldiers at the gates of a Palestinian city. A Palestinian is a terrorist when an army unit breaks into his neighborhood with tanks and he shoots at a soldier who gets out of a tank for a moment, and he is a terrorist when he is hit by helicopter fire and is holding a rifle. Palestinians are terrorists whether they kill civilians or soldiers.

The Israeli soldier is a fighter when he shoots a missile from a helicopter or a shell from a tank at a group of people who gather in Khan Yunis, after the fighter or one of his colleagues fires a shell or a missile at a house - from which the army says a Qassam rocket was fired - and kills a man and woman. He is a fighter when he encounters two armed Palestinians in the brush. The Israeli soldier kills armed people and kills civilians. He kills senior commanders of battalions of murderous terrorists and he kills kindergarten-aged children and the elderly in their homes. More accurately, they are killed by IDF fire. Most accurately, they are killed, claim Palestinian sources.

The security authorities and the legal authorities chase down every single Palestinian terrorist. Hundreds are arrested and interrogated for information about a single person. This is war, but the Palestinians are not arrested as prisoners of war who have immunity from interrogation and trial. Their names are known, every detail of the investigation and the charge sheets against them are open and can be published. If and when a weak investigation actually identifies an Israeli soldier who deviated (meaning he killed or used his weapon improperly, or looted, or abused people at checkpoints), his identity remains concealed. In hundreds of other cases, the army says "we are unfamiliar with the complaint." In thousands of other cases, nobody bothers anymore to ask the IDF.

Thousands of Palestinians are under arrest in detention centers. Israel is a lawful state, but it deals them a more severe punishment than denial of personal liberty: it denies them family visits before their trial. Dozens of other terrorists have been convicted and sentenced to death without ever having been brought to trial. Them and the civilians who are near them. That is self defense by a lawful state attacked by a terrorist entity. Hundreds of Israelis are involved in these extra-judicial executions and are glorified. In the last two years, Palestinians killed dozens of suspected collaborators without trial or after kangaroo courts. That is despicable murder by animals, living in an entity that does not respect the law and human rights.

The Palestinians are expected to obey military orders from the State of Israel, as if they were the laws of a Palestinian state. But the state that imposes those orders and whose army controls the territories, the land, the water resources, is not responsible for the welfare of the Palestinians living in those territories. It need not behave like a normal state, since the Palestinians are not citizens with the right to vote. It need not behave like an occupying power, since the Oslo agreement freed it of that title (in the eyes of the world) when it transferred more than 90 percent of the Palestinian population to administrative control of the Palestinian Authority. The PA became responsible for its citizenry even when it was denied any authority over most of the territory in the West Bank and was unable to put down a water pipe without permission from the Civilian Administration. The PA is still responsible for the welfare and safety of the Palestinians even after its institutions were bombed and destroyed, and tanks and helicopters control the entire area, from within and without.

The terrorists endanger the civilian population by hiding among them so the IDF cannot be blamed when civilians are killed in their homes. The fighters and their personal weapons and tanks are only guests at the settlements and outposts and shoot at the Palestinian civilians whom the terrorists exploit.

The Palestinians are bloodthirsty and have only revenge as their ambition. That is proved by all the demonstrations and public opinion polls that show the Palestinians support attacks. The Israelis, whom public opinion polls showed supported the assassination of Salah Shehadeh even after it also killed 14 civilians, are never bloodthirsty nor want revenge.

The Palestinian disrupts public order when he violates a curfew imposed by the fighters in the tanks and armored jeeps. Such a Palestinian is punishable: tear gas in the best case, shooting in another. The Israeli fighter and his army protect public order and security when they prevent hundreds of thousands of children from going to school and teachers from going to work and patients from going to hospital and farmers from going to their fields and grandmothers from seeing their grandchildren

This article expresses well many of my feelings when it comes to the behavior towards Palestinians by the IDF. Though surely the manwill eb classified as an anti-semitic self-hating Jew....

[orange]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You bear a burden, you bare your soul.

See Chris? I was right AGAIN

I NEVER mayke speling erors!

[Imran Siddiqui]

fascism was started by an idiot Italian years after Zionism was born

I like to blame it on a French idiot (Barres) .

And can we say that Fascism is simply a form of Zionism then . Hitler would have loved that .

[chequita guevara]

I blame it on a French idiot also, but on Croce. His ideas on violence and politics formed the basis of Mussolini's views.

[Boris Godunov]

Jim Croce? The bastard!

[chequita guevara]

Idiota! Not Croce. Culpea mea. He was an Italian socialist. I meant Sorel and his work, On Violence.

[Boris Godunov]

I really like Time in a Bottle.