Turkey Runs, Turkey Hides, Turkey Is.........guilty Of Genocide

[VetLegion]

yeah I dont say poles are evil (or you)

hell we have same word for pivo

[Felch]

I love these threads. Paiktis misuses the word genocide (ethnic cleansing is more appropriate), and then all hell breaks loose.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I view genocide as the attempt to exterminate the entirety of an ethnic group. Hitler's goal was to elimate all jews from the world. Turkey's goal was to eliminate non-Turks from territory that it wanted. The difference is more a matter of degree.

Genocide is far more rare, and is done for more ideological reasons that calculated ones. It's different to kill people because it's convenient, and something else to kill them because you want to kill them.

What the Turks did was still terrible, but posting threads like this doesn't fix that.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Palaiologos


I don't think what the Germans did in WWII can be possibly compared to Turkish atrocities. Jewish deaths have been largely exagerated IMHO, plus the "Holocaust" has been turned into an industry with the Jews trying to gain as much as possible.

Scratch a nationalist, find an anti-semite.

Let's have a look at the 'exaggerations'- these are conservative estimates, based on the figures assembled by the S.S. and the Reich's Foreign Ministry- who were actually quite assiduous at record-keeping:

Jews murdered as a percentage of 1939 Jewish population:

1. Benelux countries: 56% (130, 000 people)

2. Germany/Austria/Czechoslovakia: 50% (310, 000 people)

3. Poland: 90% (3, 000, 000 people)

4. Soviet Union (includes Baltic States): 28% (900, 000 people)

5. Rumania: 34% (270, 000 people)

6. Yugoslvia: 80% (60, 000 people)

7. Greece: 81% (60, 000 people)

8. Hungary 75% ( 300, 000 people)

9. France/Italy: 22% (70, 000 people)

10. Norway: 38% (750 people)

11. Denmark: 1% (70 people)

12. Bulgaria 0 %

Of course you don't have to take my word for it- how about a confession from the Kommandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1946hoess.html

A list of all the grotesque ways used to exterminate European Jewry and the 'scientific' approach makes sobering reading. They progress from such unwieldy methods as shooting at mass burial sites, to gassing with carbon monoxide in lorries and vans (too slow, not efficient/lethal enough) to the more sophisticated Zyklon B chambers, and to 'imaginative' methods such as benzene injections and experiments without anaesthetic.

This is not to gloss over the brutality extended towards the captive civilian non-Jewish populations as reprisals, or to ignore the bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or Coventry, the liquidation of the populations of Oradour-sur-Glane and Lidice, or the Romany holocaust, or, for that matter, persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses, gay men and people with physical and mental disabilities.

What singles out the Jewish Holocaust in WWII, are the methods employed and the extent. As Hitler is recorded as saying to the Czech Foreign Ministr, Chvalkovsky in January 1939:

'"Our Jews will be destroyed."

and that if war came, :

"...the result would be...[...] the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

from: German Foreign Policy Documents, Series D, Vol.IV, P.170

and

Domarus: Hitler Reden und Proklamationen 1932-1945, Vol.II, p. 1058

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Scratch a nationalist, find an anti-semite.

Does that include American nationalists and Israeli nationalists?

[molly bloom]

Patriotism is frequently the last refuge of a scoundrel. However I did not say scratch all nationalists, did I?

It is an unfortunate occurrence, however that the growth/re-growth of nationalism is frequently tied into racism/discrimination directed towards those who are perceived to be minorities who are deemed not to possess the requisite 'investment' in the nation state- this despite the fact that in the Jewish Museum in Amsterdam you can see fascinating memorabilia from the German Army of WW1 - photographs of large open air Jewish religious services with the congregation made up of German soldiers in uniform.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Hey Pioneer what is that "Hellas grill"? Do you work there or something?

Oxi, egw doulevw gia allh etairia sto Duesseldorf, auto to Restaurant anoikei ston patera mou (edw kai 30 peripou xronia)!

Well OT again, I'd say that keeping the memory alive is a good thing but why do we only keep the Holocaust alive. I mean there have been countless others throughout the last, say 400-500 years that should be kept alive as much as possible. But the ones in more recent memory from the past century really stand out because we still have survivors from some of them. Were they less barbaric? What difference does it make if it was a "genocide" or an "ethnic cleansing"? Germans feel guilty for what their fathers did but so should a lot of other countries in Europe and otehr parts of the world but it seems to me that we only keep alive what some deem worthy to keep alive! Now what purpose does that serve and finally what kind of respect is that towards our ancestors and our history!?

So long...

[chequita guevara]

The Holocaust is different in that it was systematic and industrialized.

I realize that is a small confort to the victims of other genocides. It was the first genocide capture on film, and that makes it the first "real" genocide.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Felch X
I love these threads. Paiktis misuses the word genocide (ethnic cleansing is more appropriate), and then all hell breaks loose.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I view genocide as the attempt to exterminate the entirety of an ethnic group. Hitler's goal was to elimate all jews from the world. Turkey's goal was to eliminate non-Turks from territory that it wanted. The difference is more a matter of degree.

Genocide is far more rare, and is done for more ideological reasons that calculated ones. It's different to kill people because it's convenient, and something else to kill them because you want to kill them.

What the Turks did was still terrible, but posting threads like this doesn't fix that.

Turks were slaughtering Armenians also in the places where they weren't claiming for territory.
Takingf into account that all Armenia was in Turkish claims, it ment destruction of practically all Armenians
- the same as for Jews. I didn't hear about Hitler
demanding Jews from Equador or whatever - but if
He conquered it, I guess He would kill them.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Holocaust is different in that it was systematic and industrialized.

I realize that is a small confort to the victims of other genocides. It was the first genocide capture on film, and that makes it the first "real" genocide.

Well, I'll take your argument about it being industrialized but it was not the first (nor the last unfortunately) that was systematic.

It's true though that lots of the facts was captured on reel and besides all the t estimonies and still pictures tend to make us "see it and feel" it more but I still do believe that partly it's because some want it to be that way! Which is ok, as long as they also try to keep other such macabre events in memory for the following generations t o remember!

So long...

[Palaiologos]

This conversation is about Turks, not Jews.

Please let's just stay on subject.

[Palaiologos]

Heresson is right.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Heresson is right.

As always
Thank You