Homosexuality and the Bible - Thumpers welcome

[Jon Miller]

lusting is fairly natural, but lust is a sin

Jon Miller

[Dan Severn]

*thumps bible*

*goes to hell*

[Drake Tungsten]

the moral of the Soddom story is not to be inhospitable to guests.

This is how I've always interpreted it.

[David Floyd]

lusting is fairly natural, but lust is a sin

And you don't see that as being inconsistent?

That was sort of my point - if homosexuality is indeed a sin, there is a consistency/logic problem there, don't you think?

[Jon Miller]

no

one of the ideas of christianity (not uniformly accepted) is that this world is sinful, ie that we are born predisposed to sin

Jon Miller

[Mr. President]

/me goes to hell along with Dan

[monolith94]

Yeah it's also why the puritans were scared of trees. They thought they and the forest were naturally sinful and SCARY!

[Jon Miller]

the point is that everyone has sinned and needs a savior

Jon Miller

[Asher]

The bible encourages homosexuality. Why else do you think Jesus was a long haired hippy?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
the point is that everyone has sinned and needs a savior

Jon Miller

If everybody has sinned, why don't we just call it even and have an orgy?

[Jon Miller]

well, we could...

Jon Miller

[Drake Tungsten]

Why else do you think Jesus was a long haired hippy?

I think that is more of a promotion of marijuana smoking.

If the Bible wanted to promote homosexuality, Jesus would be tall, thin, and neat with short cut hair and a penchant for wearing tight shirts. He'd probably have a moustache too. Just think of Mr. Fun's old avatar and you'll get the picture...

[David Floyd]

one of the ideas of christianity (not uniformly accepted) is that this world is sinful, ie that we are born predisposed to sin

I understand that. But let's take that through to its conclusion.

The wages of sin are death. Death, in that sentence, equates to hell, separation from God. Therefore, sin equals hell.

If one doesn't sin during their life, they won't go to hell. But, it is impossible for one not to sin. Yes, one has a choice about which action to take, but the Bible itself even says that all have sinned (and by logical extension, all WILL sin). Therefore, in actuality there is NO choice in the matter, and we will all sin at some point.

This is of course because we are born with a sin nature. We did nothing to deserve this sin nature. The sin nature is there because of Adam and Eve's sin. Thus, every person is born with a sin nature that is a result of the sin of two people thousands of years ago, and as a result of THAT, everyone will go to hell.

Unless, of course, they become a Christian.

But that brings up another good point. What about non-Christians? Well, obviously non-Christians go to hell, because they have sinned, and have not received forgiveness, not been saved. Yes, there are exceptions that I think the Bible provides for, such as small children and the mentally retarded, but overall, it can be said that all non-Christians go to hell.

But what about those that never heard about God, that were brought up their whole lives as, say, a Hindu? Well, the argument usually goes that if one really seeks the truth - Christianity - then they will find it. However, this argument makes no sense. If one is brought up as a Hindu, they are taught all their life that Hinduism is truth. They believe Hinduism is truth, and have no reason to seek another truth. It's not really fair to say that they should have been Christians if they really sought out truth, because that is not their fault.

Yet these people still go to hell, because of their sin nature, which they did nothing to deserve. I've also heard it argued that they did in fact deserve the sin nature because of sins they will commit later in life. But this doesn't make any sense at all, because one has no choice in the matter of sinning by virtue of having a sin nature. That's circular logic - one sins because of their sin nature, and one has a sin nature because of their sin. Does not compute.

Or, take the example of an atheist. Most atheists arrive at their atheism through a form of logic and reason. Logic and reason are both natural, we are created with both. But, one can't really find God through reason or logic, but through faith. However, one can easily use logic and reason to go the other way - there is no empirical evidence for God, no scientific method for proving Christianity. Yes, one can use logic, reason, and science, to prove parts of the Bible, such as historical accounts, but so what? That doesn't prove anything - it isn't logical to say that because part of a book is true, the whole book must be true on the basis of that part or parts.

Thus, even those people who attempt to arrive at a conclusion using God-given gifts - logic and reason - go to hell as well, for the same reason as the Hindu in our example. The only person who has a chance to go to heaven is the person who has faith in Jesus Christ. But faith in Jesus Christ - that is, Christianity - is one belief system out of many, that has little to no degree of scientific proof, much the same as every other religion, and cannot be arrived at through reason and logic, also much the same as every other religion. On a purely objective basis, even a logical one, choosing Christianity is no more likely and no more helpful than choosing Hinduism, or Islam, or atheism.

OK, this is getting long-winded and I'm rambling, but I just see a lot of inherent contradictions in some of this stuff, stuff that doesn't really make sense. I consider myself to be a Christian, but I don't necessarily agree with many of the traditional interpretations of the Bible.

Maybe I'm wrong, who knows. But that's exactly the point - there's no empirical evidence either way.

[Jon Miller]

no

it is not obvious that non-christians go to hell

read Hebrews, in particular the bit about Abraham

he was not christian

Jon Miller

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
you thump your bible and I'll thump mine...

How can I thump a bible that is on the net? I use

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Makes it easy to quote.

Its so darned to thump properly though. I can't find any soapboxes either.