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Should we fight? A liberal's view.

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  • Should we fight? A liberal's view.

    I fell off the fence yesterday. There's been a lot of debate as to what measures should be taken against Iraq but I was undecided as to what I felt was the right move. The choices, as far as I can see, boil down to the following-

    1- Do nothing.
    2- Economic war (sanctions)
    3- Limited/surgical military action.
    4- Invasion.

    First a spot of background. My politics would mark me out as being pretty middle-of-the-road by European standards and a lefty by US standards. I also opposed the Gulf War, just as I opposed the Falklands War. Therefore it might come as a bit of a surprise to hear that the option I've chosen is number 4. Full-blown invasion of Iraq.

    This isn't an easy decision to make- it would be narcissistic to suggest such a decision is more difficult for me than for others, but then again I am near-pacifist in my views. However I hate dictators with a venom that borders on the psychotic. That left me looking at the options in this way....

    1- It's the 1930's appeasers and the Clivedon Set all over again. I found myself asking "What would Orwell have done", and I'm certain he would have drowned this option in scorn. Some people are just far too evil to be tolerated if we're to consider ourselves to be civilised. Stuff that.

    2- Tricky. Up until recently this is the option I'd have been proposing noisily. I still think it's the right early respose. But.....in this case it looks like trying to treat a gangrenous leg by attempting to wear away the limb with a nailfile. Besides, the same people who are opposing a war tend to be the same who remind us that the current sanctions are linked to a million deaths in Iraq. I seriously doubt that this is the humane option. Besides, it's had 11 years- it's not going to topple Saddam now.

    3- Pointless. You won't topple Saddam by waving your willy at him. This option, more than any other, is laughable. It's a waste of time. It might look good on CNN but it'll achieve the sum total of bugger all. Forget it.

    That leaves option 4. Yes, it will cause the deaths of a large number of innocent people, but what other option is there?

    I've been looking back at why I opposed the Gulf War, and I think I did it for the wrong reasons. My reasoning, at the time, was as follows-

    A- Commercial factors played a strong part in the decision to go to war (ie- oil).

    B- There are more evil regimes in the world that we were doing nothing about.

    C- Therefore the war was wrong.

    Now I'd call that reasoning flawed. Whatever the motives for the war, it could have removed one of the world's evil dictators. True- he wasn't at the top of my "must be toppled" list, but at least it would have been one fewer of the bastards to moan about. Use the opportunity to kick one of the vermin out and then try to persuade people to do something about the others

    So why should anyone care? Well it's proof that even a wooly liberal can be won over, and there's nothing more dangerous than a liberal in a righteous irie. Get a liberal fighting mad, and he'll not only be ready to maim you but he'll be 100% convinced that every decent and thoughtful human being will back him to the hilt.

    Anyway, that's enough from me. What do you think?
    The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland

  • #2
    I think that no one has told me why the US has any business interfering with sovereign nations in the Middle East.
    Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
    Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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    • #3
      Well, I consider myself fairly liberal, although maybe not as much as you. Personally, I don't support attacking Iraq for 3 main reasons:

      1. There is no evidence Iraq had anything to do with the terrorist attacks in NY (I'm getting sick of saying Sept. 11), therefore, I find US justification for attacking Iraq nonexistant. Which leads nicely into ....

      2. An attack is kinda hypocritical, if you ask me. Now, don't misunderstand me - I think Saddam Hussein is a horrible dictator and that the Iraqi people would be better off without him (which point I need to clarify, so see #4), but he's really no different from dozens of other dictators around the globe which the west seems perfectly happy to do nothing about, or even prop up. As for this whole weapons of mass destruction thing, I have a problem with the "he's shown a willingness to use them before" stance. Let's see, he's used them against Iran, a conflict largely supported by west, where he certainly drew no serious flak. He's also used them against the Kurds, but I don't see this as much worse than just going in a slaughtering them with conventional weapons, as has been done to ethic minorties around the globe. Now PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't think that I'm saying killing Kurds is justified, because I ain't. He hasn't used them against anyone where he knows he'll get a serious response, ie. the US or Israel.

      3. An attack against Iraq, unless fully sanctioned by the UN (which, as we know, is virtually impossible) is going to raise the ire of the entire Arab world, and the general situation is going to get a whole lot worse than it is now.

      4. What is going to follow Saddam? If it truly is a free, democratic government, than this point is moot. However, there are two problems with this. First, the only way that can happen is if the US occupies the country with a sizeable force for a LONG time, and I doubt they have the stomach for that. Second, a truly democratic Iraq could well elect an anti-western government, and it's unlikely the US would allow that. Any other alternative may not prove to be better for the Iraqi people anyway.

      Interestingly, I feel almost the exact opposite way about the first Gulf War as you. I have no illusions that oil was anything less than the driving motivation behind western action, but if you think about what happened, it's hard to really be against it. Iraq invaded an independent, fully-recognized country. The UN universally condemned the invasion, put sanctions in place, and authorized the use of force to back them up if Iraq did not withdraw. When the actual shooting started, Iraqi forces were driven out of Kuwait, but Iraq itself was not invaded (not anymore than to fight the Iraqi military, anyway). The end result was a hostile invasion of an independent country was reversed with nearly full world support. I don't think you can really fault that action, despite any economic interest that underlay it.
      "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
      "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
      "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

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      • #4
        Originally posted by David Floyd
        I think that no one has told me why the US has any business interfering with sovereign nations in the Middle East.
        Self defence?

        Like it or not, its still a dog-eat-dog world. If the US believes Saddam to be an increasing threat, then they have every right to strike first.
        ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
        ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by David Floyd
          I think that no one has told me why the US has any business interfering with sovereign nations in the Middle East.

          Well, it definitely has interests in ME oil. Now, whether or not you think that it's justified is another matter, but don't delude yourself that the US and world economies are not heavily dependent on ME oil.
          "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
          "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
          "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kontiki
            Well, it definitely has interests in ME oil.
            Europe should be the main hawks then.
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

            Comment


            • #7
              I myself am a radical humanist, which puts me in many affairs far to the left, in others to the center.

              I have been arguing against Bush's war in Iraq not because i think war is inherently bad, or because I think that if we don't attack every dictator, we should attack any (that kind of thinking i deeply flawed). My problem is that Bush is going to war for the wrong reasons, and selling a ridiculous argument about Saddam and terrorists. Today at the UN he finally made, partly, the right argument against Saddam, which is, that he is in violation of binding Security council resolutions.

              NOw, so are other states, but again, to make the UN sec council count, one has to enforce what one can- not decide not to enforce any Sec council resolution cause some states have friend on the council.

              The valid reason to go to war in Iraq is to force the government to follow the dictates of the UN security council. Now, this is different from what Bush wants: In the fist scenerio, if one invades and Forces a Saddam regime to say OK, then you have won, got the inspectors in, had the resolutions followed. Bush wants a different aim, in which the government is destroyed and a new one formed- this is NOT part of enforcing resolutions- this is going beyond to meddling into the political affairs of a state that don't apply to external matters, something the UN is not designed to do, and sovereign states are not supposed to do.

              Now, I am not particularly interested in state sovereignty: I would not mind the US lossing its soverignty when it comes to a whole host of issues. I also don't care for Saddam Hussein, and would not care to see him go. What this administration has failed utterly in is articualting anything more than the most vague vision for Iraq after, which is the most important thing of all. How will the US help reate a stable, and perhaps democratic regime, help avoid fighting between factions, halp grat legitimacy to the government so it will not be seen as a US imposed one, which will mean an eventual death sentece on the regime. The day after and beyond is the hard part, and Bush has shown no vision for it. until he does, the tanks should stay at home, becuase otherwise we might be worse of than before.
              If you don't like reality, change it! me
              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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              • #8
                BTW, who does top your "must be toppled" list Bugs?
                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                Comment


                • #9
                  Cal,

                  Self defence?
                  How so?

                  Like it or not, its still a dog-eat-dog world. If the US believes Saddam to be an increasing threat, then they have every right to strike first.
                  Look at it the other way. Saddam views the US to be an increasing threat to Iraq, so shouldn't he have the right to strike first against us?
                  That's what happens when you throw morals out the window.

                  Kontiki,

                  Well, it definitely has interests in ME oil. Now, whether or not you think that it's justified is another matter, but don't delude yourself that the US and world economies are not heavily dependent on ME oil.
                  Of course there's the minor point that the oil is in no way ours.
                  Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                  Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mugabe tops mine.
                    ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                    ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by David Floyd
                      Kontiki,



                      Of course there's the minor point that the oil is in no way ours.

                      I don't dispute that, which is why I said "whether or not you think that it's justified is another matter". I'm merely pointing out why the US gets involved in the ME.
                      "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
                      "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
                      "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by David Floyd
                        How so?
                        The US knows Iraq is its enemy, so before Iraq gets too strong, the US takes it out. Fair enough IMO.

                        Look at it the other way. Saddam views the US to be an increasing threat to Iraq, so shouldn't he have the right to strike first against us?
                        Sure, and he would if he could.

                        That's what happens when you throw morals out the window.
                        You think its 'immoral' to attack Iraq?
                        ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                        ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DinoDoc
                          Europe should be the main hawks then.

                          Why? Just because Europe is heavily dependent on ME oil doesn't mean they should back an attack against Iraq. It's called seeing more than one way to resolve a dispute.
                          "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
                          "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
                          "I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have no problems with a war in Iraq, provided our politicians have the diplomatic backbone to do the right thing after Saddam is deposed. Which ain't bloody likely.
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kontiki
                              Why? Just because Europe is heavily dependent on ME oil doesn't mean they should back an attack against Iraq. It's called seeing more than one way to resolve a dispute.
                              Yes, just like the Euros have always done: appeasing the aggressors and blaming their allies.

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