Should we fight? A liberal's view.

[David Floyd]

Oh, I see, so we should wait until after the fact...

Actually yes. Just as you shouldn't lock up people who you think will kill someone in the future, you shouldn't attack nations you think will attack you in the future. You wait until they do it, then take appropriate measures.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Ron, legally it would be a war of aggression, should the US go ahead without UN's approval. Getting that approval will make me disapprove an attack a lot less, assuming I get to see some real evidence of wrongdoings, ie. other than defying the UN and being a bad boy.

However, I personally believe an invasion of Iraq at this point would be another gross mistake on the West's behalf, increasing the level of hatred towards it considerably. I also believe it'd lead to just another brand of dictatorship, as I don't for a second trust the current US government to have the will to commit to a proper rebuilding process.

Jaakko, but your solution, "inaction," simply leaves the Iraqi people under the iron boot of a madman dictator. How is that preferrable at all versus the real possibility, indeed, the likelihood of reform, democracy and human rights?

[DinoDoc]

Pre-emptive Action to Forestall Terrorism

[Ned]

Originally posted by Jaakko
The US is supporting regimes with similar violations of UN resolutions BTW, such as Israel (sorry guys). Merely defying the UN can't be a casus belli, or the black helicopter boys will suddenly have a point.

Jaakko, Name one resolution that Israel violates.

[Az]

Jaakko:

The US is supporting regimes with similar violations of UN resolutions BTW, such as Israel

Well,IIRC , Israel isn't FULLY compliant with 2 of them. But they aren't talking just about "us", but about "them" as well.

I've never seen the UN as much of an authority in the issues of how the world should look , morality , etc. Heck , some security council memebers, and a large chunk of the member nations don't comply with the UN charter , that is , in a way, the foundation to the whole organization. In the light of such geo-political conditions , I am not ashamed of my country , at all. ( in this respect. There are others, however... )

the reason why I support the war against Iraq , is that I don't like the regime in Iraq, and the US is, for its own reasons, that may, or may not, be similar to mine, is willing to do something about it.

The reason that I don't like the regime in Iraq is ... well we all know why ( corrupt bastards, knowingly, and intentionally killed lots of people, threatens the country in which I and my friends live, this could go on ).

DF: how close is the future that you don't judge, and/or care about ? If there is an imminent strike , wouldn't you strike first?

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Ned


Jaakko, but your solution, "inaction," simply leaves the Iraqi people under the iron boot of a madman dictator. How is that preferrable at all versus the real possibility, indeed, the likelihood of reform, democracy and human rights?

That's a flimsy excuse Ned, when you consider the US track record of supporting friendly dictators. I don't see why the US should be granted some shiny "good guy" badge, when it acts like any other self-interested nation.
And as far as I'm concerned, lack of democracy and western type rights in a country is not a reason for war.

And as far as Israel goes, look at Azazel's post.


Az (I liked Dalgetti better, now I always think you're some new Israeli guy) -- I absolutely agree that Israel has every right to defy the UN. I can even relate to your wish to depose Saddam, considering that you are just about the only country possibly threatened by him.

[Felch]

Beating up some nasty evil dictators is better than beating up none at all. Liberty is not simply a priviledge of those born in the great state of Texas.

However I agree that we lack consistency, and that we should attempt to build an international committment to abolishing despotism throughout the world. Dictators are no one's friends, they exist only to further their own aims. The West needs to take the lead in abolishing savagery and liberating those who are unable to free themselves.

[Jaakko]

Moral crusading is going to get you killed if you try it on anyone except weakling nations like Iraq.
And considering the failings of human nature, the basic message of this is that if you're small and disagree with someone big, you're screwed.
Not a world I want to live in.

[Az]

Moral crusading is going to get you killed if you try it on anyone except weakling nations like Iraq

most of the strong nations don't need that kind of "re-education" due to the fact that the right morals make strong nations.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Actually yes. Just as you shouldn't lock up people who you think will kill someone in the future, you shouldn't attack nations you think will attack you in the future. You wait until they do it, then take appropriate measures.

There is a huge differance between a future murderer and a future mass murderer who possibly has the capabilities of wiping out the majority of a region.

And he gassed his people. He's already a murderer.

[Az]

but TEF, that would be interfering with the internal politics of that country ! we couldn't POSSIBLY do that!

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Azazel

most of the strong nations don't need that kind of "re-education" due to the fact that the right morals make strong nations.

Not really, all you need is nukes and internal order.

[Jaakko]

And need I remind you that Saddam gassed his people with the US' approval?

[orange]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
There is a huge differance between a future murderer and a future mass murderer who possibly has the capabilities of wiping out the majority of a region.

And he gassed his people. He's already a murderer.

We have a nuclear arsenal capable of destroying the entire population of the planet, and we've murdered people in the past.

[orange]

India is a democracy. I'd be up for action against China, however.

This is uncharacteristically naive of you, Laz...

I sincerely hope you're not becoming one of those fun posting trolls...you're too intelligent for that.