Should we fight? A liberal's view.

[notyoueither]

Why couldn't he get material from the former Soviet Republics? Why does he need to make it?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Do you have inside knowledge of the Iraqi nuclear arms program? Are you privy to classified intelligence information? Do you have a list of every black market purchase Iraq has made in recent years? If not, then you know jack ****, just like the rest of us. Your knowledge of the process required to build a nuclear bomb does not give you any insight whatsoever into what is actually happening in Iraq...

It gives me insight into how difficult it is to do it, unless you have access to weapons-grade material. This is not the sort of thing you can hide (like chem or bio stuff). He needs plants which cover square miles, he needs highly-trained techs, he needs ready access to a ton or two of raw uranium, he needs a hell of a lot of electricity to run these plants, he needs to ship stuff back and forth. All of these are extremely difficult propositions when you've got people watching you from above 24/7.

The mere fact that there's been no solid evidence of a successful extraction operation up and running is enough proof that there's been very little actually accomplished.

You can't run this stuff on a laboratory workbench...

[Capt Dizle]

Why is Saddam so adament to keep inspectors out?

[Drake Tungsten]

It gives me insight into how difficult it is to do it, unless you have access to weapons-grade material. This is not the sort of thing you can hide (like chem or bio stuff).

How do you know that he has been able to hide this stuff? Something has obviously gotten the Bush administration all worked up. Who knows what American spy satellites have picked up in Iraq? They could have the necessary plants up and running right now, for all any of us know. Just because we haven't seen the information yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Besides, like nye said, he doesn't have to make the fissile material. It would be easier to smuggle some out of Russia...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Why couldn't he get material from the former Soviet Republics? Why does he need to make it?

If he could get from former soviet republics then he'd already have a bomb.

The fact is, 10 kgs of refined U235 is worth just about as much as a 10 kt warhead...because any idiot can make one from the other. Why not just claim that he'll buy a nuclear weapon? Unfortunately, that's a claim that can be made against anybody. He doesn't need any damn scientists at all if this is the case...and this means there's no proof against him, unless there's evidence of actual negotiations to buy.

So now the danger of nuclear weapons proliferation is something you can hang over anybody's head. Saddam's a nutbar, but no nuttier than a couple dozen others...all of whom have better capabilities than he does (due to sanctions).

[Drake Tungsten]

I think you're assuming far too much. I don't see how you have any real knowledge about Iraq's nuclear capabilities; it just sounds like a bunch of speculation to me...

[KrazyHorse]

Drake, if this is the case, then why haven't we heard it? All he has to do is point at a spy satellite picture that shows there's some sort of imminent danger and he's got the entire Western world behind him.

So saying that there must be something because the Bush admin is all worked up is just begging the question. God forbid we'd ever think that a government might act irrationally or with a logic that we don't approve of...

[notyoueither]

There may be other nutbars, but none of them combine his psychoses and track record.

I am not in favour of the US just deciding to invade. I am in favour of the international community deciding enough with that guy and then the Americans and Brits moving to end his reign.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I think you're assuming far too much. I don't see how you have any real knowledge about Iraq's nuclear capabilities; it just sounds like a bunch of speculation to me...

I know what "proof" is being presented to the public, and I know what sort of proof would be evident if Saddam had either:

a) a breeder reactor
b) a full-scale separation plant in operation

They're so far apart right now that you can't even see one from the other. Unless you're going to rely on the claim that there's definitive proof we're not being shown (against all logic) the absence of such definitive proof is pretty good proof of the opposite.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm not claiming to have any sort of knowledge about the Iraqi nuclear programme or what the Bush administration knows about it. I don't know anything, so why would I make assertions that I can't back up? You're the one making pronouncements about how far Iraq is from a nuclear weapon without any sort of evidence. Seems a bit stupid to me and not very convincing, but go right ahead if you want to...

[KrazyHorse]

I think the nuclear weapons crap is just being thrown in to scare people...and that without it, the cost we would have to ask the Iraqi people to bear is too high for the reward Saddam's premature demise offers.

[notyoueither]

I don't believe he's making it Frogger. That could not be hidden.

But that he got his hands on some ready made material... There is intel that can not be revealed without revealing how it was obtained. The lack of public showing can not be used as an argument that there is no proof.

[KrazyHorse]

Nope...but if that's the case then why the hell does Bush and co. need support they refuse to get with said hypothetical evidence? And why are we being shown weak-ass evidence instead?

If Saddam's dangerously close to acquiring a functional nuclear weapon, then what would stop Dubya from going in and coming back with the evidence and a fait accompli?

[Drake Tungsten]

Maybe he's saving it for the right time? Patience is a virtue...

[KrazyHorse]

You're overestimating the current administrations abilities regarding foreign policy. Claiming this is all sort of some master plan we're not privy to isn't much of an argument, and it's certainly not enough for me to say yes to invasion.