The two faces of Islam.

[Velociryx]

I wasn't aware that the IRA bombed anything in the name of the Christian God.

Do they bomb stuff? Of course! I'd not deny that in a heartbeat!

Do their bombings carry religious overtones?

Not that I've ever seen, heard, or read about, but if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be most curious to see it and be proved incorrect.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: I've also yet to see any instances of people dancing and celebrating in the street, post IRA bombing, tho admittedly, I've not gone hunting for it. My gut tho, tells me its just not there.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You just shut your eyes and say 'nyah, nyah' to prevent the truth from reaching you, right?

IRA didn't carry religious overtones . Does the fact that they are Catholics and the Northern Irish are Protestants mean anything to you?

[Velociryx]

yes....they were of a different religion than those on the other side of the fence.

The fundamental difference is that they didn't go in guns blazing in the name of God.....unlike the variety of jihads (and we've seen a whoooole lot of them from the ME....seems like every week for a while there, there was some splinter group declaring a jihad on some d@mn body), and after the dust cleared, you didn't see masses of people out dancing in the streets celebrating. Or did I just miss that?

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

The fundamental difference is that they didn't go in guns blazing in the name of God

You know nothing about the conflict in Northern Ireland do you?

[MrFun]

So Islam was spread through violence -- just as Christianity was spread through violence up until the early 20th century.

Look at European colonialism of Africa in the late 19th century -- become Christian, or be shot.
Of course, many other Africans were simply enslaved on rubber plantations in order to administer "benefits" of Christianity to these people.

[Velociryx]

What I am saying is that the core of the IRA's conflict involved getting Great Britain out of Northern Ireland. That smacks of political motives involving who should govern, not religious ones (tho in this case, the two were clearly somewhat intertwined....nonetheless, the struggle has NEVER been cast as a religious one at the core....the IRA's stated goals have always been, so far as I know, to drive the British from Northern Ireland, not because they were of a differing religion, but because they didn't belong there. In case you didn't realize, the British aren't mentioned in the bible, and their presence--or not--in Northern Ireland doesn't have much to do with the Christian faith in general.

Now....contrast that opinion with that of Muslim splinter groups, many of whom have declared war on all of Christiandom, and have said that they won't be happy until the entire western world burns. Notice any difference? Any difference at all?

So....since the IRA's attacks are not religiously based at the core, my contention was, and still is, that they are NOT a counter-example to the one I first gave. Further, you have yet to provide me a link showing mass thousands of people dancing in the streets and celebrating after an IRA bombing attack.

Simply put then, the IRA's activities are NOT comparable to those Muslim splinter groups who blow things up in the name of Allah, and cause riotous celebrations in the streets afterwards.

What part of that is so difficult to understand?

-=Vel=-

[TheStinger]

Vel is correct, the IRA hapen to be catholic(99% anyway)
and the British protestant(80% anyway) if the entire British nation converted to catholicsim overnight the republicans would still want the british out.

The IRA are much more similar to old style palestinian terrorism which was secular in its aims(although there were religious elements to it.)

[Imran Siddiqui]

Now....contrast that opinion with that of Muslim splinter groups, many of whom have declared war on all of Christiandom, and have said that they won't be happy until the entire western world burns. Notice any difference? Any difference at all?

Well if you don't like that example, what about the Knights Templar? The Jesuit Order? Those were definetly Christian based, spreading the word of God, and killing anyone that gets in the way.

Now....contrast that opinion with that of Muslim splinter groups, many of whom have declared war on all of Christiandom, and have said that they won't be happy until the entire western world burns. Notice any difference? Any difference at all?

Which is a total non-issue and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

if the entire British nation converted to catholicsim overnight the republicans would still want the british out.

I SERIOUSLY doubt it. That makes the issue religious at the core. If Britain was Catholic, you wouldn't have half of the 'atrocities'. The New Model Army would have never tryed to destroy the Catholics. Maybe the Potato Famine might not have ended up so bad, etc. It is BECAUSE of the inherant differences in religion that things have gotten where they are.

Frankly, I'd compare the IRA to Hamas, or as Stinger has said, the PLO.

[TheStinger]

Yes the original problems had a lot to do with religion, Cromwells boys were puritans and engaged int he sort of religuos atrocities that were common in europe during the 17th century.

Now though the problem is more one of politics. Most republican and loyalist terrorist would be hard pressed to come up with the main differences between their religions.

[Velociryx]

I see...so the fact that Muslim splinter groups have declared their dissatisfaction with all of Christiandom (dissatisfaction to the point of bombings and repeated terror attacks, I might add), and today, there are no such corallory groups returning the favor has nothing to do whatsoever with the issue at hand....that being, the fundamental differences between the two religions, and those who would paint a "kinder, gentler face" onto Islam?

I would submit that perhaps it is YOU who go Nyah, Nyah, and not let the truth sink in.

One of these religions is not like the other....care to guess which one is the standout?

The Knights Templar and Jesuits are actively blowing up buildings where, again? And these result in celebrations in the streets afterwards? I admit that I don't watch as much news as I should, but this is news to me!

Show me a modern Christian corollary to Muslim terrorist groups blowing up civilians in cafes and prompting street celebrations afterwards, and you will prove me wrong. Show me anything else, and you're playing smoke and mirrors games.

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

You really don't get it. You try to make a distinction by saying 'MODERN' because you know the history of Christianity is much bloodier than the history of any other religion. Because today's Christians have seen the light that means that they weren't bad in the past. Please

And the Knights Templar (and Hospitalier) along with the Jesuits massacred many non-Christians. Hell, the Christians like to kill off themselves and forget it if you were declared a heretic, like the Albegensians.

And apparently you can't process facts. You seem to think that the Muslim terrorist groups are against anyone Christian. It shows that your grasp on the facts is tenuous at best.

so the fact that Muslim splinter groups have declared their dissatisfaction with all of Christiandom (dissatisfaction to the point of bombings and repeated terror attacks, I might add), and today, there are no such corallory groups returning the favor has nothing to do whatsoever with the issue at hand....that being, the fundamental differences between the two religions, and those who would paint a "kinder, gentler face" onto Islam?

You damn well bet your ass! Once again you try to assert 'MODERN' to cover your ass against charges that Christians were bloody barbians for most of their history. It is interesting that as the West turns AWAY from Christianity you don't have masscres by Christian groups.

Perhaps it was Christianity all along that was violent and made Europe into a very violent place?

[dunk]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The fundamental difference is that they didn't go in guns blazing in the name of God

You know nothing about the conflict in Northern Ireland do you?

Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland?

It sounds the same as Israel occupying Palestine.

There is a slight difference. The IRA doesn't have much backing compared to the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. ad nauseum.

Religion isn't the true cause for these conflicts. It's territory. Religion is simply a rallying cry and it always has been. Ask one of the extremists as to why they are against Israel's existance. Usually they say, "Israel is agressive towards us. And that is Palestine, our home." The Palestinians were removed from present-day Israel to make room for the Jews. No wonder they're pissed. And that's all there is to it.

Even if the Qu'ran didn't say to kill every infidel you see with a human bomb, but said, "Be nice to everyone," these conflicts would still exist. MAYBE in a more benign form, but they would still be there.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by dunk


Isn't the root of it the fact that the UK controls Belfast and Northern Ireland?

It sounds the same as Israel occupying Palestine.

There is a slight difference. The IRA doesn't have much backing compared to the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. ad nauseum.

Religion isn't the true cause for these conflicts. It's territory. Religion is simply a rallying cry and it always has been. Ask one of the extremists as to why they are against Israel's existance. Usually they say, "Israel is agressive towards us. And that is Palestine, our home." The Palestinians were removed from present-day Israel to make room for the Jews. No wonder they're pissed. And that's all there is to it.

Even if the Qu'ran didn't say to kill every infidel you see with a human bomb, but said, "Be nice to everyone," these conflicts would still exist. MAYBE in a more benign form, but they would still be there.

Its quite different, over 300 years ago scotish puritans settled in Ulster, they probably shouldn't have been allowed to bu they did. Now in the present they want to remain Briitsh, there are more of people wanting to remain British than who want to join the Republic.

Its a question of self determination. In some respects Ulster is an artificial construct that shouldn't have been created but it was and the question now is how to resolve the differences peacefuly.

[Velociryx]

No....don't get me wrong...I get what you're saying, and I readily acknowledge that Christians have had more than their share of blood. The key thing tho, is in the past, and in any case, I have *yet* to see a link from you disproving my first statement.

The most telling thing to me is this:

If a splinter Christian group bombed a cafe full of people in the name of the Christian God, the Pope, and every other prominent leader of the Christian world would come out *strongly* against such actions, declare a day of mourning, offer to help those suffering, etc., etc. Christians the world over would be expressing their outrange and offering assistance.

When a bomber in the ME goes into a cafe in Israel and blows up a cafe filled with innocent people in the name of Allah, we get as a response:

Dancing in the streets and celebrations.

Fundamental difference, wouldn't you say?

If you disagree with this, then show me the link. Show me some footage of Christian soldiers of the faith bombing cafes full of innocent people and celebrations erupting after the fact. And, since we're talking about current events here (the premise of the whole discussion centers around current events....the main reason I put the "modern" distinction in my last post btw), keep it current.

So show me!

I'll wait right here, 'k?

-=Vel=-

[dunk]

Almost the same.

It's just older than the Israel - Palestine conflict.