I just realized something about abortion...

[loinburger]

Monk's idea has merit, but it also requires that irresponsible folks start acting responsibly. If they couldn't be bothered to use birth control the night before, then they might not bother to use birth control the morning after. (Many will, though, since they're not being rushed by their randiness.)

[rah]

Sava, loin, agreed.

The reason I said that was because just the other day one of our favorite trolls (who is now serving time on our favorite island) made a blatant statement that ANYONE that had an unwanted pregnancy was simply irresponsible. And deserved what ever happened.

Just wanted to clarify.

[Dr Strangelove]

Errrrr......... I've known plenty of people who were utterly unapologetic about abortion.

[Kepler]

At the theological level, the anti-abortion argument isn't about abortion at all. All religions have tried to pen up and restrict sexuality as the competition -- it gives people the same rapture of spiritual transcendence the clergy is always on about (and which is also suspiciously close to symptoms of acute hunger brought on by fasting). All religions also try to control women, since they think of them as sexuality incarnate.

Some religions go more with the flow of sexuality, but Orthodox religions of all stripes are anti-sex. They have identified sex as the enemy, therefore everything about it has to be surrounded by reprisal, penalty, and pain.

Orthodox religious establishments oppose abortion for exactly the same reasons that they opposed treating venereal diseases in the 19th century. These are the penalties for doing something they hate, therefore you're not allowed to evade God's penalties. This isn't morality -- it's power.

If abortion is murder, then so is abstinence.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by rah
Just wanted to clarify.

No worries, my trolls are usually about things like cartoons and gettin' jiggy with it. It's no fun to troll about something of even borderline importance, let alone something to do with ethics.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kepler
At the theological level, the anti-abortion argument isn't about abortion at all. All religions have tried to pen up and restrict sexuality as the competition -- it gives people the same rapture of spiritual transcendence the clergy is always on about (and which is also suspiciously close to symptoms of acute hunger brought on by fasting). All religions also try to control women, since they think of them as sexuality incarnate.

Some religions go more with the flow of sexuality, but Orthodox religions of all stripes are anti-sex. They have identified sex as the enemy, therefore everything about it has to be surrounded by reprisal, penalty, and pain.

Orthodox religious establishments oppose abortion for exactly the same reasons that they opposed treating venereal diseases in the 19th century. These are the penalties for doing something they hate, therefore you're not allowed to evade God's penalties. This isn't morality -- it's power.

If abortion is murder, then so is abstinence.

uhmm, I hope you aren't talking about the Orthodox church... they allow priests to get married... in fact, marriage is a requirement in the Serbian Orthodox church. I believe you are referring to orthodox without the capitalization.

Rah:

Doc: What's your take on this thread and the suggestions in it?

[David Floyd]

The only argument I can see for banning an abortion is if it were medically proven that a fetus is a living human being in the same way you or I are.

But there's even a problem here - it's forcing a woman to do something with her body, take a risk, even, in order to ensure life for another. We can't force someone to donate a kidney, and we can't even take organs out of a dead person without their consent, so I'm not sure we could ban abortion, even IF it was proven that the fetus is the same as one of us.

Not that I think abortion is a good idea. I don't, not at all.

[November Adam]

Originally posted by David Floyd
The only argument I can see for banning an abortion is if it were medically proven that a fetus is a living human being in the same way you or I are.

But there's even a problem here - it's forcing a woman to do something with her body, take a risk, even, in order to ensure life for another. We can't force someone to donate a kidney, and we can't even take organs out of a dead person without their consent, so I'm not sure we could ban abortion, even IF it was proven that the fetus is the same as one of us.

Not that I think abortion is a good idea. I don't, not at all.

Why does the fetus have to be the same as you or I? If it's human, then terminating its life is wrong.

The problem with your kidney analogy, is that it is the man and the womans actions that created the life. Thus the consequences of their actions is the creation of the life that you are saying the woman should be allowed to terminate.

[David Floyd]

Why does the fetus have to be the same as you or I? If it's human, then terminating its life is wrong.

That's what I was trying to say.

The problem with your kidney analogy, is that it is the man and the womans actions that created the life. Thus the consequences of their actions is the creation of the life that you are saying the woman should be allowed to terminate.

True.

My ultimate point, though, is that the federal government should not ban abortion. Murder is not a federal crime (except on federal property of course), and if a fetus is human, then killing it would likely be murder.

Just find a credible scientist to prove that a fetus is human, and if there is a lack equally credible dissenting opinion I will say that you can go ahead and ban abortion at the STATE level.

[Dis]

I'm not sure of the laws of abortion. But only very early abortions should be allowed. There is no reason to allow late-term abortions.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kepler
At the theological level, the anti-abortion argument isn't about abortion at all. All religions have tried to pen up and restrict sexuality as the competition -- it gives people the same rapture of spiritual transcendence the clergy is always on about (and which is also suspiciously close to symptoms of acute hunger brought on by fasting). All religions also try to control women, since they think of them as sexuality incarnate.

Some religions go more with the flow of sexuality, but Orthodox religions of all stripes are anti-sex. They have identified sex as the enemy, therefore everything about it has to be surrounded by reprisal, penalty, and pain.

Orthodox religious establishments oppose abortion for exactly the same reasons that they opposed treating venereal diseases in the 19th century. These are the penalties for doing something they hate, therefore you're not allowed to evade God's penalties. This isn't morality -- it's power.

If abortion is murder, then so is abstinence.

troll another thread

(And yes, Oregon is lovely)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Dissident
I'm not sure of the laws of abortion. But only very early abortions should be allowed. There is no reason to allow late-term abortions.

I agree

(early abortions are questionable (when does life begin?), late abortions are not

Jon Miller

[loinburger]

I think the question is "how to reduce the number of abortions without outlawing abortion," not "should abortion be outlawed."

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I agree

(early abortions are questionable (when does life begin?), late abortions are not : )

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

still wrong, that smilie should be

Jon Miller