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**November Adam** · August 30, 2002, 16:50

good point... guess I'm impatient to boot!

**loinburger** · August 30, 2002, 16:56

Originally posted by November Adam
Hey loin didn't we have a debate regarding whether a fetus was human or not? If I recall we came to the consensus that biologicaly it was, but than we were going to go into "ethically", but we petered out. Did we not? Or am I just going crazy?

We sure did. You convinced me that there's no justification for classifying an unborn child as anything other than an individual human being (albeit one that was temporarily reliant on the mother for nourishment etc). We continued to disagree over whether the complete lack of brain activity in the first trimester nevertheless justified an early term abortion--I argued that it was ethically equivalent to pulling the plug on a somebody who was brain-dead, you disagreed, and there wasn't really anywhere to go from there.

Note that this doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that you're going crazy, though.

**Gibsie** · August 30, 2002, 16:59

I'll bite: Do people agree to be hit by cars through walking in the road? If not why do women agree to fall pregnant through having sex?

**November Adam** · August 30, 2002, 17:03

Gibsie,it's more like... when people sky dive, they don't want to hit the ground, but if they do then they have to live (or not) with the consequences.

**loinburger** · August 30, 2002, 17:03

Originally posted by Gibsie
I'll bite: Do people agree to be hit by cars through walking in the road?

Sure, if they don't look both ways or obey the "don't walk" sign or whatever. They're not agreeing to get hit (I'm assuming that they'd rather not), but they're agreeing to take on unnecessary risk in the process of crossing.

**November Adam** · August 30, 2002, 17:05

Originally posted by loinburger

We sure did. You convinced me that there's no justification for classifying an unborn child as anything other than an individual human being (albeit one that was temporarily reliant on the mother for nourishment etc). We continued to disagree over whether the complete lack of brain activity in the first trimester nevertheless justified an early term abortion--I argued that it was ethically equivalent to pulling the plug on a somebody who was brain-dead, you disagreed, and there wasn't really anywhere to go from there.

Note that this doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that you're going crazy, though.

Right... I really can't see us going any furhter now, unless you have had a new brain wave in trying to convice me.

As to crazy.... this is a possibility, to many sleepless nights I guess.

**loinburger** · August 30, 2002, 17:17

Right... I really can't see us going any furhter now, unless you have had a new brain wave in trying to convice me.

Nope, the "embryo == brain dead" argument is still my main one. I haven't debated the issue with anybody since then, and I usually don't think up new arguments unless I'm actively debating something (or unless the matter is left unsettled in my own mind, which is not the case here).

**November Adam** · August 30, 2002, 17:22

Originally posted by loinburger

Right... I really can't see us going any furhter now, unless you have had a new brain wave in trying to convice me.

Nope, the "embryo == brain dead" argument is still my main one. I haven't debated the issue with anybody since then, and I usually don't think up new arguments unless I'm actively debating something (or unless the matter is left unsettled in my own mind, which is not the case here).

I didn't even unsettle your mind a little?

**KrazyHorse** · August 30, 2002, 21:34

Originally posted by rah
Last time I checked. Almost all birth control methods are not 100% effective. So it is possible for RESPONSIBLE people to have unwanted pregnancies. Even for those that are so responsible they are using multiple forms of birth control.

Exactly.

**KrazyHorse** · August 30, 2002, 21:38

Originally posted by November Adam
Gibsie,it's more like... when people sky dive, they don't want to hit the ground, but if they do then they have to live (or not) with the consequences.

That's like saying that people who skydive don't get to have medical attention afterwards because they agreed to take on the risk.

For me, abortion is the last line of defense against my partner having an unwanted child.

**Dr Strangelove** · August 30, 2002, 22:40

Re: Re: I just realized something about abortion...

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Others, like me, don't think there's anything wrong with abotion, since it's just having an unthinking lump of flesh removed from your body.

OOOOhhhhhh......Yessssss. It's OK to kill unthinking lumps of flesh!
If I ever see you anywhere near a WWW arena or a republican convention I'm going to run like h**l the other way.

**KrazyHorse** · August 30, 2002, 22:47

If I ever saw a WWF arena or a republican convention I'd run the other way in any case.

**Sava** · August 30, 2002, 22:50

ditto

**chequita guevara** · August 31, 2002, 00:35

Re: Re: Re: I just realized something about abortion...

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Jeez, Chegitz, this does not apply to any of the (Catholic) pro-life people I know.

Which is why I used the word organizations.

**KrazyHorse** · August 31, 2002, 00:42

Re: Re: I just realized something about abortion...

Originally posted by Adam Smith
My understanding is that the pro-choice group is split into two camps.
1. Abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. eg., Hillary Clinton
2. Abortion on demand and without apology. eg., Patricia Ireland (National Organization of Women) My understanding is that the second camp is considerable, perhaps approaching a majority.

I fall into camp 2.

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I just realized something about abortion...

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