Selective Service - Keep it or Ditch it?

[Dis]

Bill Gates has given away billions.

who knows exactly where that money is now though . He did it as a PR move. He was competing with Ted Turner in that regards.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Sava
Only very few people actually contribute money in goodwill rather than to improve their image.

Yeah, but you're trying to give away other people's money to improve your image.

Christianity is about making moral choices of your own free will. It's wrong to legislate morality about sexual choices, just as it's wrong to legislate morality about social choices. Republicans are hypocrites, but at least David is consistent in his opposition to imposing his will on others.

[Midshipman]

I say ditch it.

As of this point, I am active duty military with a forward deployed squadron. We are almost all volunteers, except for a few guyus who had a choice between the Navy or jail. I can tell the difference between them and the people who signed up on their own. They have no drive and motivation, and if there was a draft again, we'd just get more people like that.

Also, in the current military, to be anything more than a grunt, you must go to school. I spent 15 months in school to be a helicopter crewchief and an electrician - that kind of thing would not work with a draft

[Sava]

Originally posted by Felch X


Yeah, but you're trying to give away other people's money to improve your image.

Christianity is about making moral choices of your own free will. It's wrong to legislate morality about sexual choices, just as it's wrong to legislate morality about social choices. Republicans are hypocrites, but at least David is consistent in his opposition to imposing his will on others.

Actually, I don't give a crap about improving my image. I'm trying to do it to satisfy my selfish idea of morality that everyone deserves an opprotunity.

So legislating morality is wrong? Then should murder/stealing be legal?

Law is legislated morality, buddy.

[Ramo]

I think financial aid for college (through loans, grants, and scholarships) is a justified public expense, but I consider the draft no less than a form of slavery. But since the draft is so improbable in today's world, I'd say go for it.

I'm probably going to sign up for the SS next year.

Merit based aid is NOT a form of welfare.

It is if the University is public.

[David Floyd]

monk,

I'm in agreement with Sava here David, moreover, as a christian you should support programs that help out those less fortunate than you to the best of your ability. You shouldn't resist them kicking and screaming. You will have to answer for your actions one day you know.

Exactly. And one of the 10 Commandments states very clearly, "Thou shalt not STEAL". Forcing me to give up money to give to someone else is certainly stealing. I have no problem with charitable giving, but I do have a problem with stealing.

dissident,

As for germany of course their u-boats posed a significant threat. I think volunteers were enough to support naval manpower needs.

Absolutely, in fact, the majority of naval and marine personnel were volunteers.

Sava,

Maybe I'm just silly, but don't you think the reason nobody can invade us is because of the deterrence of our military? And much of that deterrence is the fact that we'll send every able-bodied man (and now women) to die in the defense of freedom? But again, maybe I'm just silly.

No, nobody can invade us because nobody has the naval and logistical capacity to get over here, and the only two countries that border us have militaries that probably compete with each other for who sucks the most.

In any case, we have nukes, that is deterrant enough.

Oh, I'm sorry. Can you tell me where the free school is. I'd like to finish up my under-grad and not have to pay this huge student loan. And next time I get sick, can you tell me where the free-hospital is so I'm not stuck paying thousands of dollars in medical fees?

I can certainly tell you where to get a free meal if you are starving, or a free cot if you are on the streets. True, private charity doesn't provide directly for free education and healthcare, but it IS true that private donations and charity provide a lot of scholarship programs - and since these are private, they don't have to hand them out to some schmuck who happens to be 1/8 American Indian, they can hand them out to someone who deserves them, like the guy with the 4.0 in high school who has all AP courses and has pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and doesn't expect free ****. If that's not you, sorry. As to health care, there are also certainly ways to raise money to pay for an expensive prodedure.
Don't tell me that down on their luck people, sick people, or people who want an education but can't afford it don't have options open to them, without federal aid programs. They do.

Rich people only give enough money to make it look like they're making a difference. Don't you dare say that corporations actually care about giving money to charities. Corporations only care about profit margins and making money. Only very few people actually contribute money in goodwill rather than to improve their image.

So? Regardless of intentions, they give more money than we'll ever see in our lifetime, and it goes a hell of a lot further than my taxes do.

So legislating morality is wrong? Then should murder/stealing be legal?

Law is legislated morality, buddy.

I agree with you TO AN EXTENT. Law legislates morality in that it says not to violate the rights of others, or hurt others, which we judge as a good moral position. That is self-evident.

When someone says that law shouldn't legislate morality, most likely what they mean is that there should not be laws against "sins" that are basically victimless in nature, such as alcohol and drug use, prostitution, gambling, etc.

[Shi Huangdi]

"It is if the University is public."

No it isn't. Public Universities care about their prestige and academic reputation too, that is why they have merit aid. It is more of a case of lower prices for a client you want to have to further your own interests.

[Felch]

There is a difference between saying, "Don't do anything that hurts other people," and saying, "Do something to help people."

Preventing bad stuff is different from forcing good stuff. It's the essence of Natural Law, the founding ideal of the United States.

Since you clearly don't give enough of a rat's ass about a liberal education to read books, I'll give you a quick overview.

People have rights. These rights don't require anybody else to exist, that is to say, they exist in nature. It is just as easy to enjoy your rights to life, liberty and property in Papua New Guinea as in Texas as in the Stone Age, assuming the local population isn't stealing them from you. The only requirement in fact, is that you respect other people's rights to life, liberty, and property. Ideally if everybody respects everybody else, they can all have these rights without any need for legislation or even government. They exist in nature, and require nothing except inaction to continue to exist. When they are threatened however, they do need to be protected.

The rights that you mention are not rights. They are entitlements. They cost resources, either human, material, or monetary. They require other people to suffer in order for you to enjoy them. Even if the rich don't suffer much, they still are being essentially robbed in order to fund the entitlement programs you want. Since you don't have the right to take something that doesn't belong to you, the "rights" you mentioned can't possibly be rights. They can only exist in an artificial environment.

Whether or not you are right about everybody deserving health care and other entitlements is not important. What is important is that David doesn't think it's government's business to force other people to sacrifice their natural rights in favor of your entitlements. And he's right about it.

[Sava]

See, that's your problem David.

Exactly. And one of the 10 Commandments states very clearly, "Thou shalt not STEAL". Forcing me to give up money to give to someone else is certainly stealing. I have no problem with charitable giving, but I do have a problem with stealing.

I know stealing is wrong regardless of what the bible says. The question I ask you is, if the bible didn't say "Thou shall not steal" would you still think it to be wrong?

Don't be a hypocrite. The bible teaches that greed is wrong. Sure, taxation could be construed into being stealing. But hoarding wealth is greed, and I'm fairly confident that even if the christian god existed, he would probably agree that while taxation is a form of theft, it's not as bad as hoarding wealth for one's self.

EDIT: That's why we need government and laws, because people cannot be relied upon to be fair and act morally.

[The ANZAC]

Originally posted by Felch X
Republicans are hypocrites, but at least David is consistent in his opposition to imposing his will on others.

I see then Democrats aren't hypocrites because they take your money through "social services" and give you "personal freedoms"; oh wait they don't even do that because they pander to feminists and minorities. So I guess they are now authoritarian statists

if you don't want hypocrisy, go libertarian

[David Floyd]

FelchX - Bingo!

Sava,

The question I ask you is, if the bible didn't say "Thou shall not steal" would you still think it to be wrong?

Of course. But then again, you're the one who brought up Christianity, I was bringing the discussion to your level. Don't try to use Christianity to argue with a Christian - especially one who's mother has a master's degree in Christian studies (or whatever it's called).

Stealing is wrong because it violates natural rights. Natural rights stem from the concept of self-ownership, which you MUST agree with. If you don't agree with the concept of self-ownership, then you are basically saying that slavery is OK. Is that what you are saying?

But hoarding wealth is greed

Who says I'm hoarding wealth? Personally, in the absence of taxes, I would give to charity. In fact, I give to the church, in spite of taxes.

But who am I to say someone who doesn't believe in the Bible should be forced to live Biblically?

I'm fairly confident that even if the christian god existed, he would probably agree that while taxation is a form of theft, it's not as bad as hoarding wealth for one's self.

If you're talking about the Christian God, he would say that all sins are equal in His eyes. Again, don't try to argue Christianity with me.

[Ramo]

No it isn't. Public Universities care about their prestige and academic reputation too, that is why they have merit aid. It is more of a case of lower prices for a client you want to have to further your own interests.

That doesn't matter. One could argue that need-based aid is an investment to increase taxes (and therefore, college funds) once the person is out of college. Does that make it non-welfare?

If a student gets money from the public, it's a from of welfare. It's fundamentally no different from other forms of welfare.

[Goingonit]

The biggest bkow to the draft is that nobody needs it. As long as there are 2 million able-bodied volunteers, the USA will never need the draft. So it should be scrapped. In some countries, in some situations (Israel, for example) the draft is required, but in the US, it is unnecessary and thus the loss in personal freedom outweighs the gain.

[rah]

God, I love all the people that can think of no valid scenario that we might need a draft. YES< THE US IS INVINCABLE. And complacent as heck.

I firmly believe that ALL US citizens should be forced to serve 1 or two years in some type of service, either military or humanitarian. Besides providing an opportunity to earn our citizenship. It could go a long way towards ending a lot of racial bigotry. Forced service is the great equalizer. Rich man, poor man, black man, white man, hispanic, hetero, gay, whatever.
NO rich daddy exceptions. All together. Most biotry comes from ignorance. Serving together would give the chance for diverse people to interact on neutral grounds. It's hard to hate all blacks, when you have some black friends. Some might learn that it isn't the desire of every gay man to seduce them. Most of my youthful ignorance was easily dissipated once I actually started interacting with diverse people.

Just a thought.

RAH

[David Floyd]

some countries, in some situations (Israel, for example) the draft is required

You could say it is required, but all you would be saying is that if you set up an arbitrary state on someone else's land, and you and that someone else happen to hate each other, then you will be constantly fighting.

Well so what? The whole situation would have been avoided by not committing the first wrong, ie, setting up the nation in that place.

So basically, is the draft needed by Israel to maintain Israeli independence? Probably, yes. But is Israeli independence and the existence of an Israeli state in its current location a good thing? I'd say probably not. Therefore, the draft is not necessary to achieve a good end, in my opinion.

Another example is that Hitler needed the draft to fight the Russians, but that doesn't justify the draft, all it says is that he shouldn't have been fighting the Russians.