Revolution!!!

[monkspider]

Arrian, the invasion of the Czech division is actually a well known fact. Western History books usually portray it as them inexplicably trying to join in the western front against Germany by marching all the way east. (!) Quite an amusing little story actually.

-edit

Also, it is actually a little known fact that western forces did invade the Soviet Union. During WW I, Westerners landed a force at archangel, and the western press was fillled with tales of their taking Moscow in a matter of weeks, but they were eventually beat back by the Red Army in a rather decisive manner.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Arrian
1) I've never heard of this shady deal involving a Czech division that supposedly triggered the Russia civil war. What's your source?

Year One by Victor Serge. Serge was a French anarchist who went to Russia following the Revolution and then joined the Bolsheviks. He is remarkable for many reasons, one of them being he stood up to Stalin and lived (he was expelled from the USSR). He wrote first of the 1984 style books , The Case of Comrade Tupalayev. He became an anarchist against after he returned to France. (Sadly, his book, Year Two, hasn't yet been released from the Soviet archives. His papers were taken from him when he was expelled.) It's an excellent account of the first year of the revolution and I highly recommend it.

The Czech revolt occurred in April of 1918, while Austria was still a belligerent against the Allies, but Russia was already out of the war. The Czechs were guarding the Transsiberian railway, so when they revolted, the split the country in two, effectively handing Siberia over to General Kolchak.

2) Are you claiming mass killings by the Allied forces, or only by the White Russians? If it's the former, I'm gonna ask for a source.

The killings were on a different scale, but the Allied forces did engaged in mass executions of suspected Bolsheviks. Even the Americans engaged in this. I'll find you a source in a bit.

hence my mention of Chile.

Actually, I don't think Chile would have been much of a test case. While it's true that Allende himself was a socialist, I'm not sure he was any more radical that the Socialist Parties of Europe. Furthermore, his party did not control either of the houses of their parliament. However, the situation in Chile was moving towards revolution. The workers were striking and siezing their factories and had begun to arm themselves. I would wager that Chile would have ended up looking more like an urbanized, indusutralized Cuba, at least until Argentina invaded.

I plead ignorance in the case of the Sandinistas...

You should really check them out. They made mistakes, but would ackowledge them, explain why the did what they did, and try and correct the problems they created. The siezed the lands of the Somoza family and set up collective farms for the peasants, as well as seized the land of landlords who fled the country. Once the Sandanistas stepped down following their electoral defeat, the new govenrment retunrd all these lands to their previous owners.

[JCG]

I'd say the French revolution, as it certainly had
important effects in the long term, destroying much of the previous mentality. Probably the same can be said about the Athenian one, but I don't know too much about it.

The Russian revolution, on the other hand, probably had much more potential, through Communim, but in the end it gave capitalists (ie:the U.S. ) necessary and justified excuses for reaction and repression, so it basically fell into the trap and lost itself...

About the Sandinistas...

http://www.stardot.com/~jorian/san.html (check cache on google)

This information alledges that maybe they weren't too democratic, after all it was a non-elected "junta" that ruled, despite respecting human rights, press freedom (initially) and improving living conditions. Maybe that was their great mistake?

EDIT: Fixed URL...

[Arrian]

Monkspider,

I'm aware that western forces were in Russia in 1918 - the official line is that they were there to take back war supplies sent to Russia while it was helping to fight Germany. The Bolsheviks signed a peace treaty and bowed out of the war, so the troops were to safeguard supplies that were to be taken back. I don't claim to be an expert on it, and I'm sure there was more than just that. First off, the Bolsheviks pissed off the West by making peace w/Germany... that was a big no-no, considering how close the war was. I don't blame them for making peace, mind you, as Russia was taking a terrible beating. I note that both you and Che totally ignore the officially stated reason for (at least the US troops) foreign troops in Russia, and treat it like an invasion. You may in fact be correct, but I'm skeptical on this one.

Che,

Thanks for the info. If I have the time, I may check out Year One, but for now I will take your word on the Czech thing.

Mass killings by American troops in Russia, huh? That's news to me. I'd like documentation, given the manitude of that accusation. If you mean they fired on a crowd in panic or something, that's a bad thing, but not quite "indiscriminate mass executions on a scale it would take Stalin to match."

I'm not unwilling to believe American soldiers have done bad things (Vietnam pretty much takes care of any illusions), but I do want some sort of proof... and I mean a reasonably neutral source.

-Arrian

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Well maybe if you evil capitalists stopped ****ing with us everytime we came to power that wouldn't happen.

Is that why you Commies practice war by invading your Fraternal Socialist Comrades?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Arrian
Monkspider,

I'm aware that western forces were in Russia in 1918 - the official line is that they were there to take back war supplies sent to Russia while it was helping to fight Germany.

Offically, the Allies landed to prevent war supplies from falling into Germans hands. It should strike no one as a coincidence that everywhere the Allies landed, they overthrew the local Reds and put the Whites in charge. Furthermore, as the Allies landed no where close to areas under German threat, you have to wonder.

Although the Allies were pissed about Russia dropping out of the war, the pacification programs that the Germans had to enage in the newly aquired terriroties effectively mean that few German troops would be heading West. All of the Areas coming under German occupation had been under the control of the Reds and Anarchists: the Baltics, the Ukraine, Poland. The people there didn't give up without a fight, though they ended up losing, and getting rather crushed.

Mass killings by American troops in Russia, huh? That's news to me. I'd like documentation, given the manitude of that accusation. If you mean they fired on a crowd in panic or something, that's a bad thing, but not quite "indiscriminate mass executions on a scale it would take Stalin to match."

-Arrian

Note I used the words "mass executions." The Allies would execute real and/or suspected Bolsheviks in large groups. Several thousand Reds died at the hands of the Allies. I've got a picture around here somewhere of US troops executing Bolsheviks. I'll scan it when I find it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Is that why you Commies practice war by invading your Fraternal Socialist Comrades?

We Trotskyists have never invaded any of our socialist neighbors, even when we had state power in the early USSR. That's a Stalinist thing. Stalin was your fault.

[Stefu]

Arrian, the invasion of the Czech division is actually a well known fact. Western History books usually portray it as them inexplicably trying to join in the western front against Germany by marching all the way east. (!) Quite an amusing little story actually.

-edit

Also, it is actually a little known fact that western forces did invade the Soviet Union. During WW I, Westerners landed a force at archangel, and the western press was fillled with tales of their taking Moscow in a matter of weeks, but they were eventually beat back by the Red Army in a rather decisive manner.

I've wondered about 'little known'. I've known it for some time. Perhaps it was that little cartoon book pressed in Soviet Union with an amusingly pro-Communist perspective that I read as a child. Joensuu's city library had put it in the humor section, bless their little hearts.

Oh well, anyway:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/muchado.htm

[DinoDoc]

Wrong thread

[Lefty Scaevola]

Little known, hell, palying the Rssuian Civil War game before most of you gus were born, I stooped the **** out of a lot simulated commie scum with the Czechs, Poles, etc.

[Felch]

Dr. Strangelove, it's senseless trying to be funny around these people. Humor just isn't something they understand.

[Felch]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
We Trotskyists have never invaded any of our socialist neighbors, even when we had state power in the early USSR. That's a Stalinist thing. Stalin was your fault.

Ye Trotskyists have never controlled any of your socialist states.

I love your lack of moral strength and character. Whenever Communism does bad things you blame it on people who clearly aren't Communist, like Stalin. Then you blame Stalin on people who were born after he died.

Just admit it Che, you're a faker. You prolly don't even like Communism. You just listen to Rage Against the Machine, and think that hooting and hollering about a workers' revolution is cool. It's pathetic. If you're going to support a movement, support it. Don't just post slogans and blame all the world's problems on people you disagree with.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


We Trotskyists have never invaded any of our socialist neighbors, even when we had state power in the early USSR. That's a Stalinist thing. Stalin was your fault.

Wait a Sec...didn't Trotsky invite the Westerners to Russia during the Revolution?

[C0ckney]

Yep the Bolsheviks loved democracy..like the (elected) constituant assembley which they broke up at gun point after...what was it..1/2 a day..

[Wittlich]

Revolution!!!

Oh darn! I thought by the title of this thread that we (Apolyton) were having a revolution! Oh well, I guess it's back to business as usual...