Revolution!!!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Unfortunately, all of the ones outside Russia collapsed very quickly owing to the inexperience of the comrades leading them.

Except for the ones in China, Korea, Vietnam, and Cambodia.

[chequita guevara]

I meant in the immediate wake of the Russian revolution. Anway, those other revolutions weren't workers' revolutions.

[Clear Skies]

The French revolution started out good, unfortunately it got hijacked by Napoleon and the republic got slightly sidelined...
Plus a lot fo good people went undeservedly to the guillotine, especially de Gouges, an early feminist and proponent of women's rights.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I meant in the immediate wake of the Russian revolution. Anway, those other revolutions weren't workers' revolutions.

The Chinese Communist Party was formed in Shanghai in 1921, that's pretty close to the Russian Revolution. The backbone of the communistic forces was farmers but workers were supposedly leading the revolution.

[Az]

Dr. Strangelove:

Nothing important happened in Europe between 1800 and 1945.

*raises eyebrow*

[chequita guevara]

Even after Napoleon, France was still a republic (just not a democratic one). Feudalism was still toppled, and he destroyed feudalism where ever his armies conqurred. Even after the Restoration of the monarchy, the aristocracy had no power and the country was still run by the bourgeoise. The same is true for much of Germany and Italy. He also spread the idea of nationalism throughout Europe.

UR, after the masacres of 1927, the workers took a back seat in the CCP. When they were on the verge of winning, the workers of China rose up and took control of the cities. Mao wasn't too happy about that. The Trotskiyist section of the CCP ended up fleeing to Hong Kong.

[Arrian]

Cromwell... what a bastard. But the English Civil War was pretty damn important in that it placed the elected representatives (Parliament) over the Monarch. Then again, the Athenians did come up with the idea of democracy a few thousand years prior...

The French revolution certainly sent shock waves through Europe (hey, the people can get together and take over, and they can even behead the King!), as did the October Revolution.

The American revolution... wasn't really all that revolutionary. It was a war of independence. The slogan "no taxation without representation" pretty much sums it up.

I'll go with the Russians. They: 1) whacked their king; 2) were trying something truely new; and 3) got one helluva reaction from the rest of the world.

-Arrian

[Lefty Scaevola]

Commie revolutions sure seem to be stuck in a rut of totalinarinism. Seems like the only good commie is a powerless commie.

[chequita guevara]

Well maybe if you evil capitalists stopped ****ing with us everytime we came to power that wouldn't happen.

[Arrian]

Sure, blame it on outside forces. Yeah, "the West" didn't react very well to the USSR, but blaming the totalitarianism that came to characterize it on the West's treatment of the USSR is an extreme stretch.

-Arrian

[Lefty Scaevola]

Gee, commies call the capitalits the evil enemy, call for their overthrow, "reeducation", and up against the wall throughout the world, and it is the capitalist who are "****ing with" the commies? And, I wonder just where the caveman brained capitalists came out with the concept of exporting revolution and other means to further their concept of economics and governments.

[chequita guevara]

I highly doubt the USSR would have degenerated if the West hadn't started the civil war and then invaded Russia. They were doing quite nicely until that happened.

[Arrian]

Che,

I know you think that. Since you really believe in communism, you have to be optimistic about it. I understand that. Looking at the historical record, which shows a consistent trend toward totalitarianism, and concluding that communism and democracy are mutually exclusive would essentially destroy your faith in communism. Ergo, you must assume that something went badly wrong, and furthermore that it wouldn't have without the evil capitalists mucking things up.

Like I've said before, it's a pity we helped put Pinochet in power, because that would have been an interesting case study in a socialist/communist government which was democractically elected. My bet is that it would have turned totalitarian or would have reverted to a capitalistic society, but I can't prove that any more than you can prove the USSR would have been Utopia but for involvement of the western nations in the Russia civil war (which they didn't start, so far as I know).

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

While you are correct that we can only speculate, we do need to keep some facts in consieration. Until the Allies told the Czech division in Russia that the condition for getting their own country was to help overthrow the Bolsheviks, things were going very well in Russia. By setting off the Civil War and invading Russia, they created a crisis on a scale with which the Bolsheviks were simply unable to adequately cope.

Given the nature of the threat by the Allies and White armies, who were committing indiscriminate mass executions on a scale it would take Stalin to match, and without the benefit of foresight as to what Stalin would become, the Bolsheviks were rather justified in taking what repressive measures were necessary to stave off White victory. Had they lost, the word the world uses today for fascism would probably be a Russian word. We only need to look at the attrocities committed in White held areas.

As for what came after, saying the China, etc. prove the case against communism is like saying that the Barker Gang is the proof that all Barkers are going to be criminal. She made her children that way, and Stalin made sure that all Communist groups were molded in his image.

A non-Stalinist communist group did come to power once, the Sandinistas. Under the Sandnista government there were free elections, opposition parties, a free press, human rights, etc. There's your experiment in an elected socialist government (unless your only source is the US state department).

[Arrian]

1) I've never heard of this shady deal involving a Czech division that supposedly triggered the Russia civil war. What's your source?

2) Are you claiming mass killings by the Allied forces, or only by the White Russians? If it's the former, I'm gonna ask for a source.

Yes, the logic does follow that once Stalin took control of the USSR, future communist states would be influenced by his practices. But that doesn't mean they definitely would be totalitarian... hence my mention of Chile.

I plead ignorance in the case of the Sandinistas... all I know is that the US sold arms to their enemies because of something silly involving dominoes and a guy named Monroe.

-Arrian