Which religion you belong to?

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by loinburger


Atheism covers "doesn't believe in god(s)" as well as "actively disbelieves in god(s)." Often the former is called weak atheism while the latter is called strong atheism. (This is mostly done so that weak atheists don't get lumped together with strong atheists, since most hardcore idiot atheists belong to the latter group.)

This is nothing but an attempt to blur the distinction between true Agnostics and full blown Atheists. Simply put there a lot of people that call themselves Atheist when they actually Agnostic. Its not the fault of the Agnostics that some people want to blur the distinction or lie and call it fence sitting to try to intimdate Agnostics into going on belief.(See Slowhands Troll thread for further discussion and further attempts to intimidate).

It's possible to be an agnostic and still believe in god(s), since an agnostic believes that god's existence hasn't been proven or that it can never be proven--it therefore isn't contradictory for an agnostic to believe in god yet still believe that god's existence can never be proven, since belief and proof are two very different things.

Thats not agnosticism. That would be a weak Deist. That is a, Deist that thinks he may be wrong but understands that he can never know. Unless of course a god should decide to prove its existance, something that would be difficult since it is possible to have godlike entities that only appear to be able to confound the laws of the Universe.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Boshko

Personally I like infidel, since it sounds stronger than agnostic and you're less likely to get people misintertreting your position and asking questions like "but how can you PROVE that god doesn't exist" with that label...

Oddly enough Infidel actually has specific meaning but it has been coopted by Christians to mean something exactly the opposite of its original meaning. Its a Arab word and is used to refer to ALL non Moslems. If you aren't Moslem your an Infidel even if you are one of the peoples of the Book (Moslems, Jews, and Christians). Apparently this irked the Crusaders and they took to calling Moslems infidels.

As for people asking that question, well thats point of Agnosticism. You can't prove it and belief is not an issue for the Agnositic as they choose not to go on belief.

The problem is the two terms are somewhat the reverse of their root words. Agnostic is litterly without god and Atheist is literally without religion yet the actuall definitions are the reverse. I can't help that. I am not the cause of that confusion. I just learn to deal with it.

[CapitanGarlic]

I thought Einstein was Jewish...

Lutheran, here, btw.

[DeepO]

I thought that Agnosts were a specific branch (like Protestants) of Christianity, that believed that maybe there is a God, maybe not, but as it can't be proven everybody should look for a God within himself. They were extinguished in the 4th Century IIRC, but both Cathars and Freemasons take religious points from this ancient religion. (e.g. the pyramid with God's eye shining is an Agnostic symbol, now a freemason one).

And in my mind, there is a big difference between Atheists and those that don't believe (whether you call these weak atheists are not): Atheists are only those that believe there is no God, and even have proof for it.

DeepO

[Aeson]

I think that is the Gnostics you are talking about DeepO.

[Aeson]

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

gnostic

\Gnos"tic\, n. [L. gnosticus, Gr. ? good at knowing, sagacious; as a n., man that claims to have a deeper wisdom, fr. gignw`skein to know: cf. F. gnostique. See Know.] (Eccl. Hist.) One of the so-called philosophers in the first ages of Christianity, who claimed a true philosophical interpretation of the Christian religion. Their system combined Oriental theology and Greek philosophy with the doctrines of Christianity. They held that all natures, intelligible, intellectual, and material, are derived from the Deity by successive emanations, which they called Eons.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

[Jon Miller]

wow, a lot of atheists here (I don't remember past polls being so atheist heavy)

Jon Miller

[DeepO]

Thanks Aeson, I already wondered why I wasn't able to find a link on them

So, of to search for gnostics then

DeepO

[Aeson]

Probably at least a few agnostic votes that ended up atheist because it was the closest option.

[Aeson]

It'll be a long search if they really were wiped out 4th-5th century AD

[DeepO]

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html

is a good one... Christianity was not always so forgiving...

DeepO

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ethelred
This is nothing but an attempt to blur the distinction between true Agnostics and full blown Atheists.
...
Thats not agnosticism.

Agnosticism is not a metaphysical belief, it is an epistemological belief. You can believe in god(s) (a metaphysical belief) even though you don't believe that said god(s) can be proven to exist (an epistemological belief). So if somebody says "do you believe in God," and you respond "I'm an Agnostic," then you've failed to answer their question.

[Aeson]

It's an answer to the question, even if it's not a very good one. The question itself isn't very good, as 'God' is an extremely ambiguous term.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by CapitanGarlic
I thought Einstein was Jewish...

Lots of Jews aren't members of the religion. Think of it as one name for two things. A religion and an ethnic group. There a lot of agnostic Jews in the US. Just as there are a lot of agnostic Irish.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by DeepO


And in my mind, there is a big difference between Atheists and those that don't believe (whether you call these weak atheists are not): Atheists are only those that believe there is no God, and even have proof for it.

DeepO

No such thing.Can you to show me an Atheist with proof? Real proof, not some delusion, like that life is crap therefor god does not exist sort of nonsense.