Was the Germanic tribes victory over the Roman armies really a victory?

[Roland]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
3. If the 535 eruption of Krakatoa had such a disasterous effect on civilization, why did some civilizations recover much faster than others? For example, in 535 China was nearing the end of the Second Period of Disunity. By 581 China had consolidated into the Sui Dynasty,which in 617 gave way to the Tang Dynasty, probably the greatest period in China's history. Could other factors have had more important roles in some cases than climate?

For europe, definately. Also while overall population dropped by maybe a 3rd from 500-650, some relatively quiet corners showed a clear expansion; that is clearly the case for the bavarian settling in the period, while Gaul and Italy were in an almost permament civil war. I think the collapse of political order and war played a much larger role.

It's also interesting that this estimate shows little effect on the population of Spain, which was relatively calm under visigothic rule (at least compared to the merovingian mother****ers).

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html

Those numbers are just wild guesses, of course...

[Ned]

Roland, I found one site that estimated the population to be 100k in 500. But I also remember that Italy made a major comeback under Goth rule. I can imagine the City growing in population, but will concede that it may not have been 1 million in 534.

[Az]

a relatively off-topic question to all you Dark age history buffs, where can I get the political, and national map of europe, eastern and western , in the years 500-1000?

[C0ckney]

http://www.roman-emperors.org/Index.htm

Maps from 1-1500AD, it helps if you can speak French, but it's pretty clear even if you can't

[Ned]

Saint Patrick, a Roman citizen, landed in Northern Gaul in 407 hoping to establish trade relations between Ireland and the Empire. He reported that he found no-person or animal for two weeks.

This is the summer the Germans invaded.

[Az]

thanks, C0ckney. if you have more of those,I'd be greatful.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by C0ckney

http://www.roman-emperors.org/Index.htm

Maps from 1-1500AD, it helps if you can speak French, but it's pretty clear even if you can't

There's an English version of these maps floating around somewhere.

[Az]

they're quite clear in french too ( I read french well, can't say a damn sentence ). plus, they've chopped them into pieces. That really got me.

[chequita guevara]

If you find the English site, you can see the individual quarter, as here (click on different parts of the images to see the blown up quadrants) or the whole big thing.

[Az]

I know that. I've downloaded 'em all.

[Gatekeeper]

Hmm ... Crater Lake, Oregon ... 5000 BC ... wasn't this about the timeframe when civilizations were thriving in present-day India? Didn't they suffer some sort of decline on or about this time?

Gatekeeper

[C0ckney]

I think that would be 1500BC.

[Ned]

Here is a link to Procopius's description of the plague in Constantinople in 542. Gruesome.

Plague

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Hmm ... Crater Lake, Oregon ... 5000 BC

Gatekeeper

Crater Lake was 10,000 BC.

[Gatekeeper]

Chegitz:

Hmm ... **shrug** Guess I was just going by what Adam Smith had in his post on Page 2.

Anyway, it seems like there were some articles some months ago indicating that they had found some ruins in India (and offshore) that could have been from around the 5000 BC timeframe. I know there were, because archaeologists were going on about how the findings pushed back "civilization" another 600 or so years back in time (i.e. 5000 BC).

Gatekeeper