Was the Germanic tribes victory over the Roman armies really a victory?

[Dan Severn]

Originally posted by Dissident
When did this happen?

Was this one of the battles in World War 2. Battle of the Bulge maybe?

Well considering we still speak Latin today and use Roman numerals I have to say the Romans won

Actually, we use arabic numerals.

What does that tell us?

BTW: Battle of the Bulge= Americans and British vs. Germans. The Angles and Saxons were just as Germanic as the Modern-day Germans.

[chequita guevara]

If it wasn't the Germans, it would have been the Huns, the Bulgars, the Avars, the Slavs, or the Arabs. Ultimately, the mpire could not conquer nature, which is what did them in. In 535 Krakatoa exploded altering the world's climate. Around the world empires and cities collapsed. In Mexico the great city of Teotehuacan was overthrown. In the Roman empire, the Bubonic Plague came out of Africa. An Indian empire was overthrown. The Avars were overthrown by the Turks, which sent the Avars on a 4,000 mile trek where they slamed into the Romans. China fell to a barbarian invasion. Rome was doomed.

[Dan Severn]

Bubonic plague came from asia.

The military anarchy which had reigned throughout the third century, followed by the fourth century dictatorships, is what destroyed the fabric of roman society.

[KrazyHorse]

Rome had already been sacked a half-dozen times before 535. You can't blame theri fall on something which hadn't happened yet.

[Al B. Sure!]

Chegitz:

So you're saying the major barbarian migrations were due to climatic changes? what happened that sparked the Sea Peoples in 1200 BC? Or the Mongols?

[DanS]

Che is correct in that Rome went into a dark age after Krakatoa (or the conditions caused by what we believe was Krakatoa). If he's saying that this sealed Rome the city's fate, then there's some merit in that. Remember that Constantinople was also later sacked, but was able to hang on as a city for several hundred years after that.

Btw, I was not led to believe that the plague came from Asia, but rather it is assumed from abnormally cool temps in deep central Africa.

[KrazyHorse]

Was Constantinople sacked prior to the Crusades?

[KrazyHorse]

Anyhoo, the Eastern half had been growing much stronger than the Western half for a couple of hundred years before the initial sack of Rome. The fall of the Western Empire was fairly predictable...

[Dan Severn]

Originally posted by Frogger
Was Constantinople sacked prior to the Crusades?

I don't believe so.

And rome was no longer the center of even the western empire after the 200's. By 535, Rome was a city in the Kingdom of Odacer.

[DanS]

No. That's what I'm referring to. They were able to hold on as a city for several hundred years after that.

[Ramo]

The bubonic plague sealed the fate of the Eastern Empire, not the West.

Small pox and measles destroyed the West.

[KrazyHorse]

250 years. And Rome had been sacked more than once, by nations that were more that merely annoyed at them...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Frogger
Was Constantinople sacked prior to the Crusades?

I don't believe so. The Avars would have sacked the city but were paid a hefty tribute instead. Before that, I think the Goths sacked the city in the 280s, while it was still called Byzantium.

Severn, go to Secrets of the Dead on PBS.org (click on Catastrophe!). According to them, as DanS said, there was an unsually cooling of the climate in Central Africa. Ships bring ivory to Constantinople brought the plague to the Empire in 542. There were no records of the plague in the East. (It brought down the Celts in Britain, btw, the less settled Germans were less affected by the disease and they were able to conquer Arthur's realm following his death).

What's really interesting is that Islam was able to com about becuase of this event. The climate change shifted the center of Arab power from Yemen to the central Hejaz. The cities of Mecca and Medina grew in power because Yemen ran out of water.

Speer, I don't have any info about what sparked the movement of the Sea Peoples. The Mongols and Turks, however, were also sparked by climactic change. In this case it was much slower, the climate changed at the begining of the 14th Century. The Thirtheenth Century had been very good for Europe, but along came the Little Ice Age, and empires across the world fell. In America it was the end of the Anasazi people of the US south West. It sent the Mongols on the move, as well as the Plague, which this time came from North Central Asia. France was hit terribly hard. The years 1314-1317 were absolutely horrible. It rained constantly, sot that the crops rotted didn't grow much and rotted in the fields. There was mass starvation.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ramo
The bubonic plague sealed the fate of the Eastern Empire, not the West.

Justinian probably would have been able to restore the Empire were it not for the plague. Even Celtic Britain was hit by the plague, because it was still in contact with the Empire. It still traded with them and lived in cities. Where ever this was the case, the plague struck.

[KrazyHorse]

There were no records of the plague in the East

The plague first appeared in Constantinople.