Ahh, Americans and their ADD

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Of course we should not have fought in WW2. That caused the death of 435,000 Americans, whose deaths were caused by the United States government. Don't blame Germany for shooting them when they attacked German soldiers, blame the US for sending them 4000 miles away to a war that didn't concern us.

It did concern us. The loss of all trade with the formerly free nations of Europe most certainly concerned us. The murders of millions concern ALL that can do something. We could do something. We can't always do something but in this case we not only could we had good economic reasons as well. Those that don't fight to keep what they have will lose to those that are willing to steal it and Hitler was willing to kill everyone in the Soviet Union just to steal their land.

As to the Gulf War, Iraq invaded Kuwait and was threatening to invade Saudi Arabia - two backwards-ass Muslim dictatorships we had no business supporting, especially in the case of Saudi Arabia. Add to that fact that the US Ambassador gave Iraq the impression we would not intervene if they invaded Kuwait, and it's a pretty clear case of US militarism and intervention into a foreign war for economic reasons.

Well I didn't bring that one up but I disagree on at least two counts. There are indications the US government made some serious but secret promises to the Saudis after WWII. They trade oil and we protect it. This is speculation of course because the US government hasn't admitted to it. That is wrong but we still should try to keep the promise. We just should make known. Secret agreements are not right in a democracy outside of war.

Another is that economic interests ARE a valid reason for war. War is not just about survival when a nation is attacked directly on its own soil. That is just isolationism again.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
That, and Iraq's grievance against Kuwait was probably legitimate. Kuwait had been stealing Iraqi oil, and had pretty much said "nyah-nyah" to Iraq about it.

I haven't seen anything that supports Iraq's claim. What I have see is that both nations were tapping the same oil field. Kuwait tapped from their side and Iraq from its. Iraq seemed to think that since some of the field was under their land that they owned it all. I think they made a claim that Kuwait was slant drilling but I haven't heard of anything to support the claim.

Even if the claim was valid that didn't justify their actions. They conquered the whole state of Kuwait. If it was just a border dispute the right thing to do was take the territory that was disputed and no more. To take more showed the whole thing was just a pretext for conquest.

That by the way is what Iraq did with Iran. They took a disputed area without trying to conquer when Iran was in turmoil just after the Shaw was thrown out. Of course it eventually led to a major war but Kuwait is too small for that and might have had great difficulty in getting any allies in a war that was only over disputed territory.

[Dan Severn]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Of course we should not have fought in WW2. That caused the death of 435,000 Americans, whose deaths were caused by the United States government. Don't blame Germany for shooting them when they attacked German soldiers, blame the US for sending them 4000 miles away to a war that didn't concern us.

That is quite possibly one of the most insipid Ideas I have ever heard. OF COURSE we had to fight in WWII. I don't know about you, but the Idea of living in a fascist dictatorship isn't very appealing. We had to stop that evil, and the only way to stop an army is to attack it. Our casualties were relatively light when compared with the carnage suffered by other nations in that war. That is because we fought on the offensive. Furthermore, we were attacked by the Japanese. We were at war before we knew it. Hitler then declared war on us. I'd put a little more effort into my reading if I were you.


BTW: 558,000 Americans died in our Civil War, when the population of america was barely more than a quarter what it was in WWII. You want to talk about a war that could have been avoided?

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Kropotkin

Ahh, the international politics-version of "your mother!". I was suprised how long time it took for that one to show up this time around.

Ahh, the international politics-version of "I'm rubber, you're glue!". I was suprised how long time it took for that one to show up this time around.

[Kropotkin]

[Imran Siddiqui]

They conquered the whole state of Kuwait.

Well it is a small state . I'm sure they took over the capital, so they'd have better bargining power. Apparently, they also thought the US was going to back them, at least that is what the US Ambassador to Iraq insinuated (idiotic man he was).

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
WW2: Still doesn't wash, DF, as we were attacked first.

According to DF, we provoked the attack with our "unjustifiable" embargo on Japan.

[Dan Severn]

DinoDoc, Butchery and conquest is its own reward. The japanese weren't doing anythin wrong- it was just a "cultural misunderstanding."

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Of course we should not have fought in WW2. That caused the death of 435,000 Americans, whose deaths were caused by the United States government. Don't blame Germany for shooting them when they attacked German soldiers, blame the US for sending them 4000 miles away to a war that didn't concern us.

And of COURSE the Fuhrer would have allowed the US to remain as is, and the United States/Nazi Europe alliance would be the strongest in the world today

Also don't forget that Hitler promised Mexico full support if they invaded the U.S.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Also don't forget that Hitler promised Mexico full support if they invaded the U.S.

You're thinking of World War I.

[Saint Marcus]

The americans are trying to return to normal but Bush will be abled to remind them he is the man to protect the country and not some democrat in 2004.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ethelred
That was then. This is now. The world has changed in 200 years. Only the isolationists haven't. The US was not capable of fighting much then. The US now is. Besides I don't see the US fighting someone elses wars. I see it fighting its own. Even the Viet Nam War was supposed to be in the US interest. I don't think it was but that was the idea.

Look at this way for a moment for a moment Verto. Do you think the US should not have participated in WWII? Dave Floyd thinks we should not have. If you agree with that there is little hope for you. The only hope for David is that he learns to deal with reality someday instead of some nonexistant idealized world that only exists inside his mind.

Of course the U.S. should have participated in WWII - we were attacked by Japan. Pearl Harbor was what brought the U.S. into it. Even if Pearl Harbor hadn't happened, it was still our war. America's existence was at stake. Germany was negotiating the Middle East, and I'm sure it wasn't on behalf of the U.S.

But the U.S. does not need to play peacekeeper; that's the UN's job. In fact, the US should consider it's membership in the UN, but that is a different topic.

America spends its resources trying to defend a world that, in many places, resents its presence and even her existence.

[KrazyHorse]

Defend who from who? I can think of several examples where you really are defending a country against another, but only one where the population is annoyed at you for being there...

[Dr Strangelove]

Of course the intensity of feeling about September 11 is fading and people are getting on with their lives, that's the healthy thing to do. An enormous number of people were traumatized by the WTC carnage. Would you really want all those people to wander around in shock or screaming for al-Qaeda blood for the rest of their lives? We've done about all that we can do to remedy the conditions that led to the attack. We decimated bin Laden's organization and we're putting pressure on allied ME nations to root out what's left. What more could we do? We could exclude arabs and muslims from the US - no one is in favor of that. We could bring every nation which may harbor clandestine al - Qaeda cells to their knees - no one is in favor of that. If there is nothing more to be done than we might as well go about our business.

[Giancarlo]

In my country we get a constant threat from ETA, but we just move on with our lives... it is a good thing. It defeats what the terrorist organization is trying to do. Ruin people lives and through them into complete and permanent disarray. But that isn't succeeding. I am deeply astonished at the way the Americans have handled this, in such a spectular, positive way with quick decision making. But people must move on and live... that is what life is about, isn't it?