New iMacs Get Good Compliments and Superior Rating From PC Magazine

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by CICSMaster

Firstly, I believe that IBM owns the intellectual property that is referred to as RISC 6000 - which is what the G4 is based on.

Secondly, Motorola are licensed to produce chips and to adjust the design for specific applications subject to IBM approval.

Thirdly, IBM sells a supercomputer based on 256 RISC 6000 chips per box. The chips however are not the same as the chips in the Apple computers. They are engineered to IBM standards for the supercomputer marketplace and are a little bit more expensive.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Ugh... great... I'd heard somebody quip IBM supercomputers were just "big Macintoshes" but I didn't know it was that serious.

*sighs* Apple really has made some hurdles for themselves to get speed higher, haven't they?

[Wraith]

--"and would definitely help Intel with getting x86 up to acceptable levels."

When are they planning to move to the .10 process? I don't think it's going to be anywhere near soon enough to compete with Hammer.

Intel has also stated they aren't really targeting the desktop market with IA-64 (at least for now). They're going to have even bigger problems breaking into the market they want to, the enterprise server market. Due to the nature of the market, they won't get a serious hearing for another three to five years, regardless of their technology, and they'll still have the same lack of software problem, only x86 emulation won't help here.
It would be nice to have the emulation for workstation level stuff, but I'm not seeing any serious penetration into the workstation market soon either.

--"The performance hit you see with SMT enabled is because those programs simply aren't designed to use it properly. "

I love the way you say that without knowing what we're running.
You see, I'm working testing network gear. We're running server stuff here. Our Xeons are all dual or quad processor, so yes, our software is designed for multiprocessing. SMT doesn't improve most of it.

--"The 20-stage pipeline of the Pentium 4 means that at any clock, certain parts of the chip are more likely to be idle than others"

I don't think you understand what pipelining is doing.

--"Ah, so you're saying, in other words, that you're super paranoid"

I've been reading up on various compsec stuff as a hobby. It's interesting stuff.
No, I'm not particularly worried about BlueTooth wardriving. BlueTooth doesn't have much of a range, from what I recall. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems with it, notably interference problems. Garbled networking can lead to some really interesting problems, so I don't really want to see what'll happen with all the sorts of things BlueTooth is supposed to be on.

--"It's just like any other crime, make yourself uninteresting to the criminal, and you'll be fine."

I don't think you understand the nature of the modern script kiddie. A new machine on the internet will likely be scanned within minutes. The Honeynet project has seen a new server compromised in less than half an hour.
There are all sorts of automated tools out there. Script kiddies don't look for challenges or interesting things, and they don't really care what they're compromising. They just run bulk scans for vulnerabilities to chalk up bragging rights or set up large groups of zombies for DDoS attack.
Anything connecting to the Internet needs to be worried about security, and I just wish we could get software makers to understand this.

--"Right... like I'm to believe that you haven't had any computer problems with whatever box you're using."

It's a homebuilt Athlon XP machine. The only problems I've had it with it have been Netscape deciding to delete my bookmarks. No biggie, they're backed up on CD, and I'm switching anyway.

--"It all depends on what you're wanting to do."

Yes, I've said that several times in here

For me, I do need the extra speed. I do some video editing, the occassional game, some compiling. All stuff that likes the extra power. If I was just web browsing and running office apps I wouldn't have built this machine.
Video Editing, on the other hand... if I can save ten minutes per encoding session on a video file, that's worth the machine.
Of course, the whole machine cost me less than a grand, with 512 MB of DDR SDRAM, DVD, CDRW, 180 gigs of hard drive, decent video, and great audio. I should go to Apple's site and see what that money would buy me. This whole price/performance area is important to me, and is where Apple tends to fail miserably.

Edit:


Just visited the Apple online store. Sadly, the cheapest PowerMac is $1600. And that's for 256 MB SDR RAM, 40 gig HD, and no DVD. Oddly enough, it also doesn't mention network, but I'll go ahead and assume a 10/100 integrated.
The iMacs might be closer, but I don't remember how much I paid for my monitor.

As far as software, that doesn't need to be a huge cost. There are all sorts of freeware/gpl/etc software apps these days that work fine. I use GIMP instead of Paintshop, for instance, along with programs like Virtual Dub. This is another one of those depends areas. What do you use?

--"Thirdly, IBM sells a supercomputer based on 256 RISC 6000 chips per box."

You wouldn't happen to have a model number for that, would you? AFAIK, IBM doesn't sell any "supercomputers" at all. They do sell mainframes and midframes and high-end servers, but not "supercomputers".
And if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, the Power4 chips, then you're a bit mistaken. They are a far cry from a basic RISC 6000 (starting with four cores on a die).

Wraith
"Any human error on a mirrored drive will only make that mistake more efficient"
-- Curtins Preston ("Unix backup and recovery")

[Urban Ranger]

IBM does sell supercomputers. Last I read they sold something called the ASCI White to Los Alamos.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wraith
When are they planning to move to the .10 process? I don't think it's going to be anywhere near soon enough to compete with Hammer.

Their roadmaps place it in late 2003. It's not going to be for competition with Hammer. Hammer and IA-64 are in different markets until about 2004-2005, when Intel was expected to bring IA-64 to the desktop (it's going in workstations already).

I love the way you say that without knowing what we're running.
You see, I'm working testing network gear. We're running server stuff here. Our Xeons are all dual or quad processor, so yes, our software is designed for multiprocessing. SMT doesn't improve most of it.

I was assuming you were talking about the benchmarks that have been floating around on the web. SMT isn't a magical technology, it needs to be harnessed properly to get a performance boost. If all an app is doing is constant use of the ALU (databases), it won't see much performance, if any, simply because the ALU is tied up already and having it multithreaded wouldn't help. Apps with mixed threads (one heavily using the ALU, one heavily using the FPU), this is where SMT shines.

I don't think you understand what pipelining is doing.

Feel free to expand on that, but I'll provide some relevant quotes from other sites in the meantime:

http://www.slcentral.com/articles/01/6/multithreading/page10.php

Due to the already-long pipeline of the Pentium 4 (20 stages), the reduced number of registers required would also mean that, depending upon the number of threads supported by the processor, it might be possible for the Pentium 4 architecture to remain "as is" without adding the two additional stages to the pipeline. This would bode well, as branch mispredicts already hurt the Pentium 4's performance.
...
By using a Trace Cache, the Pentium 4 architecture, in a sense, makes quasi-threads where they are simply the path of execution the last time they were run. If different areas of the trace cache could be scanned for "threads," then a DMT processor might make use of the trace cache for the formation of threads.

Saying the P4 wasn't designed for SMT isn't exactly true, considering that the core debuted with SMT in the first place and has many of the traits that benefit from SMT, which Athlon/P3 don't have.

[Asher]

A purty picture to help demonstrate:

Athlons and Pentium IIIs and 4s (Not P4 Xeons) are "A" in that diagram, as is AMD's upcoming Clawhammer chip. Once used properly, SMT allows far more efficient use of the CPU. Some applications are much better suited for this than others.


Where A is the typical Athlon/Clawhammer/Pentium III/4, and B is the P4 Xeon and P5. Except the P4 Xeon only supports 2 threads (example shows 4), and it's not known how many the P5 will support.

A somewhat less technical article is here: http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1576&p=1

And I'm off to the airport now. Be back in a few days.

[Wraith]

--" Last I read they sold something called the ASCI White to Los Alamos."

That's a cluster, which isn't exactly what I would classify as a supercomputer. YMMV, of course.

--" Apps with mixed threads (one heavily using the ALU, one heavily using the FPU)"

And that's the question... how many apps are actually like this? From what I've seen, most people will get better value out of simply going dual or buying a higher end single processor.

--"Feel free to expand on that, but I'll provide some relevant quotes from other sites in the meantime"

That article is saying that the P4 pipeline is already quite long, so they don't need to add yet more stages to it. Pipeline stages don't have much to do with keepng the execution units full (two of the P4 pipeline stages are dedicated to nothing more than moving information from one stage to another).
Here's a description of the P4 pipeline.

--"Saying the P4 wasn't designed for SMT isn't exactly true"

The problem is that the P4 that was released is not the P4 as it was originally concieved. The original design had to be scaled back for economic reasons.

On the original subject, I found this articlethis article[/url].

Wraith
Who me? I just wander from room to room

[Giancarlo]

FLAMEFLASH:

In response to that message, flameflash you have failed to prove anything to me. And I will not be moved. I was not trying to argue whether you should change but I was arguing which was the better, more stable and cheaper option, the PC of course.

As there is another discussion going on here I don't appreciate you blabbering off, posting a bunch of irrevelant crap to attempt to make your post look good. None of it was revelant.

You people start going off about this and that... and this specific crap, and this other... why don't you face the tests and accept the facts.

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Wraith
--"Ah, so you're saying, in other words, that you're super paranoid"

I've been reading up on various compsec stuff as a hobby. It's interesting stuff.
No, I'm not particularly worried about BlueTooth wardriving. BlueTooth doesn't have much of a range, from what I recall. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems with it, notably interference problems. Garbled networking can lead to some really interesting problems, so I don't really want to see what'll happen with all the sorts of things BlueTooth is supposed to be on.

*nods* That helps me understand where you're coming from, sorry for calling you paranoid.

--"It's just like any other crime, make yourself uninteresting to the criminal, and you'll be fine."

I don't think you understand the nature of the modern script kiddie. A new machine on the internet will likely be scanned within minutes. The Honeynet project has seen a new server compromised in less than half an hour.
There are all sorts of automated tools out there. Script kiddies don't look for challenges or interesting things, and they don't really care what they're compromising. They just run bulk scans for vulnerabilities to chalk up bragging rights or set up large groups of zombies for DDoS attack.
Anything connecting to the Internet needs to be worried about security, and I just wish we could get software makers to understand this.

Likewise, I'll retract my paranoid statement... however, that does make me a lot more paranoid about the 'Net.

Do script kiddies just indiscriminatly hit any computer on the 'Net? I'd think those of us poor saps who are still stuck on dail-up would be safer... is it something to do with a trojan, or what? Just wondering if Macs are as vunerable to it as PCs.

--"Right... like I'm to believe that you haven't had any computer problems with whatever box you're using."

It's a homebuilt Athlon XP machine. The only problems I've had it with it have been Netscape deciding to delete my bookmarks. No biggie, they're backed up on CD, and I'm switching anyway.

Still a problem... However, I've never liked Netscrape... I'm just not surprised. I suppose I'm impressed with the fact that you have your bookmarks backed up on CD. Do you use some kind of softare that helps in the back-up process?

--"It all depends on what you're wanting to do."

Yes, I've said that several times in here

For me, I do need the extra speed. I do some video editing, the occassional game, some compiling. All stuff that likes the extra power. If I was just web browsing and running office apps I wouldn't have built this machine.
Video Editing, on the other hand... if I can save ten minutes per encoding session on a video file, that's worth the machine.
Of course, the whole machine cost me less than a grand, with 512 MB of DDR SDRAM, DVD, CDRW, 180 gigs of hard drive, decent video, and great audio. I should go to Apple's site and see what that money would buy me. This whole price/performance area is important to me, and is where Apple tends to fail miserably.

Finally! Somebody else who is actually reasonable! Heh... my cousin with the XP box will be annoyed that he could have done it for under a grand... but then it looks like he's not as informed either... otherwise he wouldn't have as many hardware/OS problems.

Edit:


Just visited the Apple online store. Sadly, the cheapest PowerMac is $1600. And that's for 256 MB SDR RAM, 40 gig HD, and no DVD. Oddly enough, it also doesn't mention network, but I'll go ahead and assume a 10/100 integrated.
The iMacs might be closer, but I don't remember how much I paid for my monitor.

*nods* I'm thinking an iBook these days is actually the best product Apple has as far as cost and what you get are concerned. But that's just IMHO. Though call me eccentric if you want, I still drool at their high-end dual processor system. If I had a lot of money, I'd still go with it... just like the OS.

As far as software, that doesn't need to be a huge cost. There are all sorts of freeware/gpl/etc software apps these days that work fine. I use GIMP instead of Paintshop, for instance, along with programs like Virtual Dub. This is another one of those depends areas. What do you use?

Are all those open-source programs fully compatible with others, though? Take CtP for example... I have it on my Mac... along with most of the other Civ games... if I were to get a new computer, this one I'm using now I'd probably set up for my mother (it's much better than her current one.) That means that I have to either try and find prog copies of or almost like all my games (I've got some classics that I still play rather often... Lode Runner, for instance.)
If you could actually help this little Mac user convert most of his things to Windows I would actually think more seriously of switching... part of my reasons for not has always been new software... but with OS X I'm going to have to get a lot of new software anyway, so I'm going to have to switch to a new OS pretty soon (either XP or X).

Now for your PhotoShop and GoLive stuff I suppose there are open-source substitutes (those are the main-stream programs I use most often besides MS Word.)

[Hey, look Fez! I'm actually admitting to using an MS product! Unlike what you accused me of earlier, I don't hate the company, they makes some good things.]

Fez tried to say something here...
FLAMEFLASH:

In response to that message, flameflash you have failed to prove anything to me. And I will not be moved. I was not trying to argue whether you should change but I was arguing which was the better, more stable and cheaper option, the PC of course.

Of course I have... if I had to proved anything to you you would have then proved me wrong because then you wouldn't be an egoist.

As there is another discussion going on here I don't appreciate you blabbering off, posting a bunch of irrevelant crap to attempt to make your post look good. None of it was revelant.

Sounds like you need to brush up on your philosphy... that wasn't blabbering, I was trying to help you see your egoist ways... it obviously didn't work.

You people start going off about this and that... and this specific crap, and this other... why don't you face the tests and accept the facts.

"You people"? Who? I'm facing the "facts" and "tests" that Asher and Wraith hand me... because what they're handing me are "facts" and "tests" as opposed to opinions.

To help you out, an opinion is something that cannot be proven (either correct or incorrect) while a "fact" is something that can be.

Me saying I have brown eyes is a fact... even if in truth I have green/blue eyes... the "fact" I have brown is because that is something that can be proven/disproven.

Your "fact" that "Apple just sucks" isn't a fact at all, and that's what I've been trying to do... get you to show me some "facts" to back up that statement, instead of saying that I'm blabbering, etc. and basically writing off my entire post. If you haven't noticed, this thread started out just to let people know about a specific article in a magazine, so really, we're all off topic after Asher pointed out how off-base trusting that specific article really was. So if I'm blabbering, by your logic, so is Wraith, Asher, and yourself...

[Wraith]

--"sorry for calling you paranoid. "

Oh, but I am paranoid. I'm just reasonable about it.

--"Do script kiddies just indiscriminatly hit any computer on the 'Net?"

Basically, yes. I used to work at a datacenter, and we did some pretty decent monitoring. We caught all sorts of people scanning our network blocks all the time, from all over the world.
Lots of AOL accounts, of course....

Dial-up may be a bit safer, if only because the kiddies will be more likely to target the IP blocks of broadband providers. Hosts on broadband are much more useful for DDoS. However, most broadbrand providers also have dial-up (and vice versa), so I wouldn't count on this. Dial-up accounts aren't active as much, however, which is a bigger help. Still not at all a sure thing, but safer than the always-on nature of broadband.

At the least you should be running something like Zone Alarm, even on a dial-up account.
Trojans are not a problem as long as you're aware of where your software is coming from and you don't open any file mailed to you. What needs to be watched for more are viruses and exploits. The former means turning off things like Active X and running a virus scanner, the latter means keeping your software patched. However, you can never be truely safe from the latter, because the good guys aren't the only ones looking for exploits. Macs are probably safer than Windows PC in this regard simply on the numbers; less Macs around, less people looking for exploits.

--"Do you use some kind of softare that helps in the back-up process?"

Ahead Nero... in other words, not really. It's just that CD blanks are cheap, my CD writer is fast (x24), and I don't change bookmarks that often. I've done enough desktop and server support work to be used to regular backups, and copying all my docs, dbs, etc, to CD once in a while is no big deal.

--"my cousin with the XP box will be annoyed that he could have done it for under a grand"

The wonders of online shopping

--"I'm thinking an iBook these days is actually the best product Apple has as far as cost and what you get are concerned. "

Just from my glance at their page, that's probably the case. I'd have to check into a lot more things (like battery life comparisons) before I'd think of getting one, but any laptop I'd have would likely be mostly used for word processing and e-mail type apps (along with playing DVDs, which seems to be pretty good at draining batteries).

--"Are all those open-source programs fully compatible with others, though?"

Converting your existing game library would probably be your biggest problem. I don't keep up with games that much any more, so I can't say what all is available (especially the classic ones), or how much it'd cost.

--"Now for your PhotoShop and GoLive stuff I suppose there are open-source substitutes"

Well, for Photoshop you could use The GIMP. It's quite feature rich. I don't do anything fancy, so I can't really comment on how it compares to Photoshop.
GoLive is an HTML editor, right? Personally I use DreamWeaver (I run a couple web sites), but that may be too pricey for you. Then again, you've bought an Adobe pro web editor... Anyway, this is one area I haven't found a good open source substitute yet. I haven't looked for one for a few months, though; I should check it out this weekend.

Wraith
"Unix is easy to use, but difficult to learn."
-- Harley Hahn ("The Unix Companion")

[Giancarlo]

Flame flash:

[quote]Of course I have... if I had to proved anything to you you would have then proved me wrong because then you wouldn't be an egoist.[/qutoe]

Proved you wrong? I am not going to argue against somebody who is obviously misled. They never change their minds anyways.

[quote]You people"? Who? I'm facing the "facts" and "tests" that Asher and Wraith hand me... because what they're handing me are "facts" and "tests" as opposed to opinions.

To help you out, an opinion is something that cannot be proven (either correct or incorrect) while a "fact" is something that can be.

Me saying I have brown eyes is a fact... even if in truth I have green/blue eyes... the "fact" I have brown is because that is something that can be proven/disproven.

There an entire sentence making absolutely no sense what so ever.

Your "fact" that "Apple just sucks" isn't a fact at all, and that's what I've been trying to do... get you to show me some "facts" to back up that statement, instead of saying that I'm blabbering, etc. and basically writing off my entire post. If you haven't noticed, this thread started out just to let people know about a specific article in a magazine, so really, we're all off topic after Asher pointed out how off-base trusting that specific article really was. So if I'm blabbering, by your logic, so is Wraith, Asher, and yourself

And by your logic, you already have been proven wrong so I guess we have nothing more to discuss? I have shown again and time again facts in my earlier posts in this thread basically restating evidence other PC users have done. You go on endless trying to cloud the facts and filter the truth from the people who really need. Mac Users are just like Bible thumping Christians with no agenda, those christians who so blindly believe this and that is a sin, and all of that crap like Civnation. You are so blinded by an inferior argument you take it out on others. Shame on you.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

You're so full of it, Fez! Therefore I am putting you my Ignore List. Take that! And that!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Cloud9
You're so full of it, Fez! Therefore I am putting you my Ignore List. Take that! And that!

Full of the truth? Yes that is what I am saying right now.

[monolith94]

I like my mac. I'd find it a dubious assertion that pcs performance really matters for the vast majoirty of the operations I do: the only area where it would really matter would be game playing, and that's fine because we get games a year later than you do anyways!

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Wraith
--"sorry for calling you paranoid. "

Oh, but I am paranoid. I'm just reasonable about it.

Sounds like me

--"Do script kiddies just indiscriminatly hit any computer on the 'Net?"

Basically, yes. I used to work at a datacenter, and we did some pretty decent monitoring. We caught all sorts of people scanning our network blocks all the time, from all over the world.
Lots of AOL accounts, of course....

Why am I not surprised about the AOL accounts? *sighs*

Dial-up may be a bit safer, if only because the kiddies will be more likely to target the IP blocks of broadband providers. Hosts on broadband are much more useful for DDoS. However, most broadbrand providers also have dial-up (and vice versa), so I wouldn't count on this. Dial-up accounts aren't active as much, however, which is a bigger help. Still not at all a sure thing, but safer than the always-on nature of broadband.

Well, that's a slight comfort, I suppose.

At the least you should be running something like Zone Alarm, even on a dial-up account.
Trojans are not a problem as long as you're aware of where your software is coming from and you don't open any file mailed to you. What needs to be watched for more are viruses and exploits. The former means turning off things like Active X and running a virus scanner, the latter means keeping your software patched. However, you can never be truely safe from the latter, because the good guys aren't the only ones looking for exploits. Macs are probably safer than Windows PC in this regard simply on the numbers; less Macs around, less people looking for exploits.

Zone Alarm? Know if there's anything like that for the Mac? What exactly does that kind of a program do?

I thought that's what trojans were... glad to know I'm not a complete newb... *nods* So my being less conspicuous helps a little by having a Mac... I know I've never even heard of a Mac virus before. Though with Mac X on a UNIX core it may start being easier for somebody to create scripts that run on all the OSes.

--"Do you use some kind of softare that helps in the back-up process?"

Ahead Nero... in other words, not really. It's just that CD blanks are cheap, my CD writer is fast (x24), and I don't change bookmarks that often. I've done enough desktop and server support work to be used to regular backups, and copying all my docs, dbs, etc, to CD once in a while is no big deal.

*nods* Just using regular CDRs, or in your opinion, are CD-RWs all right to use as well?

<-- Hates the fact that he can't remember what speed his writer is... 8x, I think... *sighs*

--"my cousin with the XP box will be annoyed that he could have done it for under a grand"

The wonders of online shopping

Any ideas for good places to shop then?

--"I'm thinking an iBook these days is actually the best product Apple has as far as cost and what you get are concerned. "

Just from my glance at their page, that's probably the case. I'd have to check into a lot more things (like battery life comparisons) before I'd think of getting one, but any laptop I'd have would likely be mostly used for word processing and e-mail type apps (along with playing DVDs, which seems to be pretty good at draining batteries).

Battery life is advertised to be 5 hours (at least on my older model one) but it generally gets 2-3 though I've pushed it to 4 when I forgot and just left it on once playing MP3s... *nods* Mine came with the DVD player, and you're right, those three things are all I use mine for... minus the extra HD via my Airport network.

Speaking of wireless networks... you mentioned something about them earlier. Does the fact that I've set mine up so only those with certain Airport card ID #s can get on help with the whole wireless security issue? Or are there other things I should do to also secure it further?

--"Are all those open-source programs fully compatible with others, though?"

Converting your existing game library would probably be your biggest problem. I don't keep up with games that much any more, so I can't say what all is available (especially the classic ones), or how much it'd cost.

I was afraid of that. I do have CivII ToT on my windows emulator... just had to have that one...

--"Now for your PhotoShop and GoLive stuff I suppose there are open-source substitutes"

Well, for Photoshop you could use The GIMP. It's quite feature rich. I don't do anything fancy, so I can't really comment on how it compares to Photoshop.
GoLive is an HTML editor, right? Personally I use DreamWeaver (I run a couple web sites), but that may be too pricey for you. Then again, you've bought an Adobe pro web editor... Anyway, this is one area I haven't found a good open source substitute yet. I haven't looked for one for a few months, though; I should check it out this weekend.

*nods* Photoshop, FreeHand, Print Shop, and GoLive are my main other programs besides the MS Office suite.

Yeah, GoLive is a web editor... I'm an IT Coordinator for my uni and they have Dreamweaver... I just prefer the interface of GoLive better, even though it does plop down some extra code you have to go through and edit out once you're done.

Good luck on hunting it out... if you happen to come across one, be sure to let me know...

I was supposed to have paid for the Adobe pro web editor?

[FlameFlash]

First off, Fez, if you could go back and edit your post so I know where the quotes are and where they aren't I'd appreciate it... makes it hard to make sense of what you're trying to actually respond to.

Point out if there was anything I missed... unlike your dropping points, I'm refusing to if I can help it, but you're not making it easy.

Originally posted by Fez
Flame flash:

Proved you wrong? I am not going to argue against somebody who is obviously misled. They never change their minds anyways.

Obviously misled? About what? I was attempted to explain to you what an ethical egoist was, and the theory behind it since you didn't catch it. I'm more of a universalist myself, and therefore if you were able to actually tell me something that was factual and unbiased I might change my mind... so far, you haven't, nor have you proven your statement (which as I explained later, was impossible to prove.)

There an entire sentence making absolutely no sense what so ever.

*sighs* And there goes my attempt to explain to you the difference between opinion and fact. If anybody is a lost cause (since you insinuated I was) it would be yourself instead in that regards.

And by your logic, you already have been proven wrong so I guess we have nothing more to discuss? I have shown again and time again facts in my earlier posts in this thread basically restating evidence other PC users have done. You go on endless trying to cloud the facts and filter the truth from the people who really need. Mac Users are just like Bible thumping Christians with no agenda, those christians who so blindly believe this and that is a sin, and all of that crap like Civnation. You are so blinded by an inferior argument you take it out on others. Shame on you.

By my logic? Could you point out how you come to that conclusion? I mentioned where you could have proven me wrong, yet you failed to and continued to act as an egoist would... thereby proven my thesis correct regarding if you were an egoist or not.

Then I went on to attempt to explain to you what the difference between an opinion and a fact was... and asked that you "prove" your blanketed opinion regarding Apple's just sucking.

And if you notice, I'm actually having a good conversation with Wraith who is helping me out on my Mac->PC switch questions. In other words, I'm getting some truth out there for fellow Mac users, if they want to, to actually switch easily with little problem. No filtering has been going on whatsoever... I've just been attempting to get you to actually debate and add to the conversation rather than throwing out anti-Mac/Apple rhetoric. Which you haven't... and have now begun to attack me personally.

It'd be a completly new topic whatsoever to take you up on the "Christan Bible thumpers" [paraphrase] so I'll just let that one slide. Though I'd like to see where you don't fall into this category as well since you seem to be attempting to burn all Mac users at the stake rather than advising on how to actually mend our ways or enlighten us how we can survive in a MS world.

I take what out on others? You're the one lashing out in anger... I've been attempting to explain different points that I've been making to you in different ways, trying to at least get the admittance that no computer system is infallible, that no OS is perfect, while no OS "just sucks" either.

If you haven't noticed, I've admitted several times OS X isn't as stable as Apple advertises, so how can your arguement that I'm a Mac fanatic really stand? Here I am, trying to sit on both sides of the fence... yet it seems all I keep on doing is racking myself with no further enlightment whatsoever from you.

I'd also like to ask what, besides those two articles, you've actually brought to the table? None if my memory serves, though you'll get an apology out of me if you can point out when you used more than that.

"crap like Civnation."

Huh? Didn't understand that one.