Greatest empires of all time

[Saras]

Originally posted by Heresson
I know it was a tatar maneuvre. Still, Lithuanians didn't come back. We are to take all the glory.

Oh, that astronom's name is Wolszczan or whatever.
I forgot about some important people... nevrmind.

Ah, there aren't many Lithuanians, but it is Lithuanian fault.
You had big empire, and if You had better culture You'd lithuanise people instead of getting polonised

I didn't ment right after the battle, just in next wars;
You got back your ?mud? and ,,,

Lithuanians came back and relieved your left flank. Read a book.

[The Vagabond]

It's funny to see Poles and Lithuanias arguing with each other.

[Heresson]

Oh, even if Lithuanians came back, it were Poles to crush
TK.

And don't cheer, Russian friend. Królewiec (Kaliningrad)
will be trapped between us anyway

[Saras]

--Oh, even if Lithuanians came back, it were Poles to crush TK.

For chrissake, Lithuanians were already fighting for 1-2 hours when the poles were still decorating themselves in colored belts. And The cream of TK, together with the majority of their force died at the hands of Lithuanians. Just look at casualty figures for Poles and Lithuanians - they'll show who was getting more action.

[Sonic]

Poles alone hadn't been able to crush TK in that battle.
Our planes where callen ANBO and were constructed by aviaconstructor Antanas Gustaitis and his workers. I believe they were made in Paneveþys.
By the way, mostly Polish politicians lead Poland-Lithuania to annexation. One of major reasosn for crash of an empire are majorly considered giovernment, because PL was surrounded by absolutic monarchies (many of republics at a time were absolutic monarchies) but PL itself weren't able to upgrade it's government.
Lithuania maybe as you say always was in civil war, but that war was "light" and it never was true civil war, it was mostly a fight for ruler's place (and this fight rarely took long). We never had such civil war like let's say USA or many other nations where the country was split and civil war took years.
And yes, TK was the only thing that kept Poland and Lithuania allied. Jogaila knew that (I am however not saying he was good leader).
And as for number of people, you must agree that both Polish and Lithuanian history in much cases didn't depended on Poland or Lithuania, but on countries surrounding us. After WW2 Poland for example gained much territory in expense of Germany (Lithuania later also got Klaipëda, but this was much smaller than territory Poland got). After WW1 Poland also gained some land. While Lithuania was occupied by Russian Epire and Later by Soviet Union. You could say that if we were strong we had been able to win a war against Soviets but you know that Poland also wouldn't been able to do that. Lithuania even now doesn't got all lands from Poland and Belarus which were granted to it in 1939 (northeast Poland and western Belarus). And that is also mostly because of CCCP policy on Lithuanian SSR (you could say that we now should invade Poland and Belarus and retake lands but you know that this definitely wouldn't be the best decition - Lithuania is now not what it has been (and this is mostly becase of other nations as stated before)). Also, for current economic development of Poland USA helped much by removing credits Poland had to pay. As you can see, both Poland and Lithuania are almost unresponsible to their current state. XX age wasn't middle ages. And, by the way, in early XX age Poland wasn't as culturally developed as Lithuania, when we retaked Vilnius in 1939 it was culturally far back if comparing with Kaunas.

I am going out now for a bit but I hope I still will be able to discuss later...

[Heresson]

1)None's fate depends on himself
2)You mean ww2 there
3)Poland lost land, was reduced from 389 000sqkm
to 316 000sqkm, an it was Lithuania that gained land
-on cost of Poland. You didn't get all You wanted in the east? We lost all we had in the east and got some smaller
lands on the west and yet not all that we were promised,
as well as the eastern border was moved west a bit while
according to the treaties it was supposed to be moved
east (Grodno...)
4)Poland wasn't helped much by USA, not more than any other state. We still are paying back our debts, but in fact
I believe that USA isn't our biggest lend-giver.
5)With Kowno's/Kauna's cultural superiority over Wilno/Vilnius You must be joking. I guess that's Soviet or Lithuanian propaganda. Wilno/Vilnius was before the war one of major Polish cultural centres, as seen on the Nobell prise for Mi?osz... Cultural life of the city after the war was poor- but that's because Lithuania has taken it and filled it with its peasants, while Polish citizens of the city were mostly banned to the east. Many many reknown
Polish artists, writers etc come from Wilno, but all the cultural elite of the city "moved" to Poland after the war
(if it survived it). The problem is that Lithuanian nationalism prefers to keep quiet about Polish past of the city,as seen on your claim's example. Anyway, Lithuania could get Wilno back after Iww, but it didn't want to accept the rights of Poles there and it didn't accept "switzerlandisation" plan or making Polish the second official language. You got what You wanted.Wilno was far back after Kowno when it comes to LITHUANIAN culture - there was almost no Lithuanians there before the war., so how your culture could flourish there? Generally, Wilno, though provincional city, kept
a higher standart of culture than Kowno.
Sorry Saras that I'm writing Kowno instead Kowno/Kaunas
etc, but it's more natural to me and anyway You use only your names so I see no reason for me not to use only mines. Btw, You are wrong when it comes to the battle.
Lithuanian/Ruthenian/Tatar army destroyed just the right flank, while the center and left flank was destroyed
by Poles, as well as the great master was killed by them,
not Lithuanians.Anyway, I don't think it's a thing to quarrel about, the victory was common. but You (Sonic) started it!

[Sonic]

Heresson, why had we made Poland second language? Are you now making Lithuanian second language because of few Lithuanians living there? And no, Vilnius hadn't almost any Polish history it was build under LGD rule and only was annexed by Poland for several decades. As for names, Vilnius and Kaunas are commonly used ones. Same as Warshaw, etc. So you should I believe use those names of cities and we are not calling Warshaw Varðuva here for example. And Lithuania didn't got land on cost of Poland, it got it's own lands and capitol city. ANBO were produced before ww2. Poland had a huge economic crisis before debsts were nulified.

[Andemagne]

tough choise between Greece and Rome.
voted Rome. (it was so much ahead of its time)

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sonic
Poland had a huge economic crisis before debsts were nulified.

It wasn't technically a nullification, it was IIRC a Brady restructuring. I won't get into details of this complicated deal.

--"Sorry Saras that I'm writing Kowno instead Kowno"

Ahh forget it. VILNIAUS 'LIETUVOS RYTAS' CEMPIONAI!!!

[Heresson]

Why Polish should have been the second official language?
because it was the official Lithuanian language for some last
centuries, because even the first session of Lithuanian parliament was held in Polish, because half of Lithuania including all its capital spoke Polish....
Wilno is a historical Polish city (with its Lithuanity nor questioned, just Lithuania was treated as a part of Poland).

By Polish history I ment that since a long long time vast majority of its citizens were Polish-speakers and that all the city life was held in Polish.

Poland is constantly in economic crisis. Debts weren't nullified, they are being paid and will be paid until year 2024
or so... Still our economy is better than Lithuanian.
And always was.

[Saras]

--"Still our economy is better than Lithuanian"

Based on GDP per capita we are actually the same.

--"Poland is constantly in economic crisis"

Bull.

[Heresson]

What is Lithuanian?

[Heresson]

What is Lithuanian GNP that is.

[Saras]

4000 eur. Yours is approx the same, no?

[Az]

Behold , observer , the wonders of Apolyton; A thread called "Greatest empires of all time" desintegrates into a Polish-Lithuanian penis-waving contest. amazing isn't it?