Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Some people only understand the blood that is flowing out of their veins. You cannot reason with fanatics. That is why they are called fanatics.

And there are reasons they become fanatics! Duh, they aren't born that way. Eliminate the reasons for being fanatical and watch the fanatics dissapear.

Then eliminate Israel?

[Ecthy]

no, but eliminate their oppression... only losers come up with stuff like that, Lincoln

[Imran Siddiqui]

And after that, only then, can we rationally rethink our position and make changes. If we make the changes appear a result of "caving in", it will promote more violence.

See, you've gotten it all wrong. This is why the ME won't see peace in my lifetime. Because Isreael doesn't understand. If Israel 'caves', it is the ONLY way to reduce fanaticism. You can't do the other way.

But I do not plan to give up to bullies.

Hey, the British did, when they gave you up to the UN to make your state.

And don't even dare call lebanese terrorism "liberation". The lebanese are now under Syrian occupation and their "liberation" groups are cooperating with it.

Of course it was liberation! It was taken away from the Jews and given back to the Arabs.

Now we left without a deal. So now

That's because you still are using violence and oppresion against their brothers. Don't expect everyone to play nice while you crush them. And terrorism was happening BEFORE you left as well.

You can't simply eleminate the reasons.

Um... it's pretty easy actually. Give them their state, as agreed to in Oslo. Try to work with them on making the people richer. Then in a generation, terrorism will be something that happens very rarely.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Let's see.

Saudi Arabia is an horrible, evil, nasty country. It oppresses its women in the most hobbile fashion. It uses torture and heinous forms of corporal punishment. It practices de facto slavery. It is massively corrupt. The people of Saudi Arabia hate the government and want to be rid of it. Rightfully so. The US, for businesses reasons, prefers that the Saudis remain in power, and provide intelligence to their government to get their critics. The US sells them weapons and trains their soldiers. The US bases troops on their soil, which the largely fundimentalist people regard as a desecreation of holy ground.

I ever say i supported these clowns?

A small group of fanatics decide to start taking on both the government of Saudi Arabia and those who support it. Even thought the people of Saudi Arabia have legitimate greivences, by Siro and Chris's logic, we must not give in, because we will be giving in to the terrorists, who are only one tiny group out of all the others who share these concerns.

Che, Che, Che, what has become of you?
You should turn in your party badge.
You don't become a terrorist, you become a revoluntionary, a VERY different animal.
Terrorism gets you nowhere.

They say instead we should stick to our guns. Now, history shows that when people have no other way to get their greivences aired, some of them will resort to violence. So by sticking to our guns, we create the grounds for new terrorists to grow, even while we do something most of us don't support. So ever more people die, because we can't stop doing something we know is wrong, because it would be giving in to terrorism.

Faulty logic, terrorism gets you nowhere and you know it.
You want a revolution, fine.
Start one, but revolutions are not blowing up children and crashing airliners into buildings.
Stop trying to equate terror into freedom fighting, freedom fighting means taking up arms and fighting an opposing army, NOT targeting non-combatants.

And it goes on forever and forever.

Terrorisn is non-productive.

Frankly, I don't want to be killed for something I am oppsed to. I don't want to die because we support an evil government (many evil governments, actually). I don't want to die because Israel won't stop using collective punishment and oppressing its natives. I don't want to die for any reason, actually, but especially not for something I don't support.

I don't want to either, but that choice is out of your hands if you give iot to a terrorist.
If the government backs things you oppose, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Make your voice heard, be a factor.
Get people to listen, then get the politicans to listen, and don't hand me that crap that is doesn't work, I'm an historian, I know damn well it does.
This crap that cold blooded murder is justified in any way is bullsh!t.

If that makes me an appeaser, too bad. My princples aren't being violated in giving in. They're being violated by "our" side. We aren't supporting our principles. By doing the exact opposite of what the terrorists demand, we are still supporting agression, oppression, and evil.

Makes you a fence sitter, and ineffective.
Do something, trying to justify terror isn't the way.

BTW, Chris it was the IRAs violence that brought Britain to the negotiation table. Britain didn't give a damn about the Catholics for centuries, even up to the '90s unless violence was used. Northern Ireland shows the success of terrorism, not the failure of it. What's really sad is that 3,000 people had to die for Britain to do something it should have done from the begining.

I disagree, they did it continually for almost 70 years and got nowhere, it was only when they agreed to stop that any talks took place.

[Sirotnikov]

Siro, you way is, decades of long and bloddy warfare before finally giving in to what was on the table in the first place. Our way is, do what you should do, and pull the rug out from underneath the support of the terrorists.

Both ways work, one just takes a lot longer and a lot more lives. That's you way.

You really think that pulling that rug is a process of a minute?

Pulling that rug as about re-education. new acceptance in society. restoration of legitimate rights.

all that can't be done while the fanatics are in power.

If the Muslim world was as rich as the European one, OBL wouldn't have many friends, and not nearly enough to do anything greater than car bombs.

Interesting. I was sure that the richest people come oil producing countries.

I was also sure that they give a good lot of money to ossama, hamas and so on.

Wrong-o. You will never eliminate terrorism so long as a large number of the masses are still legitimately aggrieved by the actions of the United States. You've got it backwards. You seem to forget that oppression breeds extremists, not the other way around.

But you forget another thing - extremists breed extremists.

Thus if you only remove opression - the existing extremists keep breeding.

If your approach was correct, then in 1939, after getting the versailles limitation practically anulled and getting much more than they deserve in land in Europe, Germans should have stayed happy and content and peaceful.

But it wasn't so. Why?

Because Hilter was in power - and Hitler bread extremists.

[Sirotnikov]

I disagree, they did it continually for almost 70 years and got nowhere, it was only when they agreed to stop that any talks took place.

bingo.

It was only when PLO promised to only talk that Israel agreed to talk.


The problem is che is wearing his commie goggles on, and still thinks that a "lower class" has no other means but a bloodie strugle to get the "higher class" to listen to him.

That's exactly your problem che - you are forcing this world view on things which don't work according to it.

Is there often fighting between weaker and stronger? Sure. Is it limited to the model of weak against strong opressors? No - it isn't.

But someone with commie-goggles can't notice that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

all that can't be done while the fanatics are in power.

The chance of it being done are nil while you bully them and kick sand in their faces. The only way to end the violence is to begin yourselves.

Interesting. I was sure that the richest people come oil producing countries.

I was also sure that they give a good lot of money to ossama, hamas and so on.

Which is because that is where the people want to see the money go.

But you forget another thing - extremists breed extremists.

Bull****. Situations breed extremists.

If your approach was correct, then in 1939, after getting the versailles limitation practically anulled and getting much more than they deserve in land in Europe, Germans should have stayed happy and content and peaceful.

But it wasn't so. Why?

Because they were whipped into a fervor. Were pissed by the French stomping on them. The French didn't give them anything, the Germans TOOK it, and wanted to punish them more. If the French were more concillatory, Hitler would have never risen to power.

What do you want to do, Siro? You want the Palestinians to TAKE land and continue to be angry at you, or do you want to GIVE them land and show them you aren't the evil people they thought you were.

[Ecthy]

Once Addi H was in power, even an immediate revision of the treaty would have meant bugger all.

And facng the economic crisis, maybe they would have gotten into power anyway, but that is unlikely.

[Imran Siddiqui]

*yawn*

Siro, you are saying it is just like Northern Ireland in the IRA decided not to fight so the British negotiated. The only reason the British decided to listen to the Irish in the first place was BECAUSE of the terrorism.

And che isn't looking at it with commie-goggles. You are simply looking at this with Jew-goggles, where Israel is always right.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
no, but eliminate their oppression... only losers come up with stuff like that, Lincoln

They hate Jews. They kill them wherever they find them. Some hated them before they even met one. The problem is irrational hate. Yes many Muslims would live in peace with their neighbors but fanatical terrorists or another problem altogether.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
But you forget another thing - extremists breed extremists.

Thus if you only remove opression - the existing extremists keep breeding.

If your approach was correct, then in 1939, after getting the versailles limitation practically anulled and getting much more than they deserve in land in Europe, Germans should have stayed happy and content and peaceful.

But it wasn't so. Why?

Because Hilter was in power - and Hitler bread extremists.

As has been pointed out before, your Hitler comparison is baseless and stupid.

Had the harsh terms of Versailles never been imposed, Hitler never would have come to power in the first place. Had the terms not included the crushing financial burden--which led to Germany's horrible economic problems--then Hitler wouldn't have come to power, either.

The Palestinians are not yet at the stage of Nazi Germany, the are more akin to the Jews in the Ghettos of Warsaw. They don't hold political power, their land is occupied by hostile forces, and they are dying in grotesque numbers.

Had the other European powers done what we're proposing here--basically, addressing the root causes of extremism--then Nazi Germany likely would never had happened. Israel is setting itself up for a future of more bloodshed, not less, under the current policies.

Extremists will come into existence without other extremists being around, silly. People who would ordinarily be normal folks will become extremists under extreme conditions. The Palestinians exist under extreme conditions, and as long as they do so, more extremists will be bred in response.

The foolish stubborness of Israeli hardliners in this matter is so mindbogglingly exhasperating and so blatantly racist that I can only think of one word for them: Israelinazis.

[Ecthy]

What I'm talking about is the fact you twisted the things he said in his mouth. More and more it seems to me that things like that (consdiered as very Jewish by stereotypists) are considered what they are for soem reason after all, with twisting things coming from that site, over and over again.

You must have KNOWN he was talking about elimination of Israeli policies, that "eliminating Israel?" thing was so destructive that I wonder what you guys are debating for. Why not use the club, liek our ancestors did?

[Grrr]

* Yawn

Never mind Siro

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, if Siro is going to try to paint Palestinians are Nazis, then I'm going to start (again) calling the Israeli state a Fascist neo-Nazi regime, that are keeping the Palestinians like the jews in ghettos in Hitler's Germany.

[Ecthy]

site owners: why don't you ban guys like him and give me my posts back