How to win the War on Terrorism

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Why do you think the Soviets never had many terror problems?

Actually, the Soviets had a substantial terror problem, they just didn't publicize it. (Two terror problems if include Stalin's terror.) The CIA waged a campagin of sabotage for decades in Eastern Europe and the Soviet union. They blew railways, electrical generation plants, screwed up public transportation, even did little things like stop up public toilets. I'm not aware of direct attacks on people, but I'm sure having the power cut in winter probably contributed to many deaths.

No matter how repressive you are, you can still have a terror problem, provided you have help. Even the Nazis faced terrorism.

[chequita guevara]

cia, who says that there aren't acts of terror going on in Saudi Arabia against the Saudis? Do you keep a close watch on Saudi news? Even if you did. it is censored. I know of a few major events, but not many details. There have been quite a few attacks on the Egyptian government, including the assassination of Anwar Sadat. Algeria has a horrible problem with terrorists.

[Arrian]

The CIA waged a campagin of sabotage for decades in Eastern Europe and the Soviet union. They blew railways, electrical generation plants, screwed up public transportation, even did little things like stop up public toilets. I'm not aware of direct attacks on people, but I'm sure having the power cut in winter probably contributed to many deaths.

cia, care to comment?

che, you have proof of these things?

-Arrian

[Chris 62]

So much nonsense, so little fact.

Imran, I never said we didn't support the Shah, I said he wasn't a puppet.

As for Boris' links, if you look, each include disclaimers, such as the first says arms sales, not what they were.
The second supports the article's author's book on his opinion of "superpower alibies", and includes no hard data.
The third about arms sales also provides no list of arms to Iraq, just an accusation about guidence systems.
The forth says, and I quote, "US-approved exports may have aided Iraqi army" , an accusation, not a fact.
All of the links were like this, the CIA one was a NY Times article.
Since the CIA has released no such records, there is no PROOF.
All waste of time links.
Next case:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Alright. what about "minions"?

More foolishness.
The US has no such puppets, no matter how hard you may wish it to be so.

You just have no idea how much America's policies are loathed all over the planet, don't you?

Oh, your the voice of the world now? :roleyes:

Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations are regrouping, relocating and reorganizing as we speak.
As for spelling, we'll assume that "El Quieda" is a typo for "Al Qaeda". Maybe you should try to get yourself an English-language keyboard?

Maybe you should try to discuss things instead of trying to be insulting just because I disagree with your half-assed statements.

It's nice if you could bother to explain.

It would be nice if you posted something besides typical Leftist whining, but then, hope springs eternal.

Please read the above arguments of a fine American, Boris Godunov, who puts rednecks to shame.
Oh yea, America sold weapons to Iran too. Isn't it nice, supporting both sides in a war?

Considering the US didn't support Iraq, another assine statement by you.
If you find said Red necks, let me know, because I'm sure you have no concept what a red neck is.
And posting "we give up is good" doesn't make ANYBODY a "fine American".

America has been treating Latin America as its own personal backyard even before it became a world power.

Jealous we managed to keep you out of someplace for a change?

Perhaps if you could learn to recognize the Vietnam War as an event where millions of young Americans and Vietnamese gave their lives in vain, instead of an "issue", we won't be having most of this debate.

Millions of Americans?
57,000+ is the US total.
All wars are an issue, your moving into thearte of the absurd now.

I'm not anti-US. Some American posters here hold sane and logical views. Unfortunately, they're the minority.

Guess again on your so-called anti-US postion.
And it's a fair bet your evaluation of "sane and logical" means they agree with you.

You're doing it to Iraq and Cuba. Unfortunately they haven't groveled yet.

Dream on, fantasy boy.
Sanctions is not planting a flag and forcing the populence to sing "Hail Britannia"

Nice. Explain Versailles all to me then and tell me how it prevented Hitler's rise.

The treaty was impossed on Germany mainly by France.
It was designed to cripple Germany for at least 50 years, even Loydd George thought it excessive, but Clemeseau wasn't having it.
It didn't prevent Hitler's rise, it's one of the issues he used in his camipaigns.
Still has no bareing on current situations, point out said Versailles.

Glad we agree.

It would be nice, but I doubt it's possible, I don't believe in abject surrender and letting terrorists dictate to me, so it's unlikely I'll ever agree with you on anything.

Maybe I should instead use insults, like the way you do?

You started it friend, not I.

America's way ended on 9/11/2001.


Yes, that's right.


May I kindly remind you that the Soviet Union lost its influence in Eastern Europe, lost its war in Afghanistan, and subsequently disintegrated?

Because internally the USSR was built on flawed foundations, Communism.
It colasped ecnomically, something that the USA is far more resilliant in.

Again, you might want to try explaining your point.

The only way to deal with mad dogs is to put them down.

And I'm sure you're convinced that you have some sort of moral superiority. Or maybe even you aren't that extreme to think hat.

When I have the temerity to belittle your government (whatever it is), and insult your way of life, themn you can come complaining to me.
You don't see me doing that, do you?

lol, we'll see about that.
Oppression begets revenge. Please see the first line of my signature.

Like so many, you confuse war with oppression.
The US isn't "oppressing" anybody (except in some leftist's fantasy world).
You think a handful of punks can't be stopped, and then you offer your "solution".
I reject the notion that they can't be stopped.

Actually, I can just quote some of the things you say to be my evidence.

Oh really?
What have I said that points to this "meddling" you keep mentioning (and never proving?)

Right..... they're trying to let each government tell what they like to their people. Right right....

Your anti-US manifesto is getting quite tiresome.
Would you care to PROVE any of your assertions?
EVEN ONE?
And I don't mean with links to sites that say "may have", or "you know", as Boris attempted.

Many more are coming, my friend.

Only if they find a way to blow something up from beyound the grave.

Alright, since this has devolved into a fest of insults, let me try to regroup my points:

Only by you friend, I answer in kind.
You just didn't want to hear what I had to say.

The fact is, millions of people around the world are out for American blood, and a few billion more (myself included) simply don't like what America has done so far. If the Americans want to solve the terrorism problem they should at least try to understand the situation, and not lash out with random fury.

This is basically an opinion on your part, not fact.
As for "out for blood", a large part of this is, in my opinion, the main result of the US being used as a scapegoat for the disafected, something for petty dictators to focus hate on.
The US isn't "lashing out" randonly, in fact, Bush's reponce was very controlled, right from the start.
And let me tell you something, many of us look on large portions of the world, especialt Europe, as the main cause of problems and a hindrence to effective solutions.
You you to say your disatisfied, withour even saying where your from, is a case in point.
Name what your disatisfied about, instance by instance, or stop wasting my time.

About the war in Afghanistan, this campaign is useful in stopping the short term threat of terrorism, but it doesn't combat terrorism in the long term. In a couple of years, Al Qaeda (or whatever replaces it) will be as strong as it was on Sept 10, 2001. Just look at Palestinian suicide bombings to see how quickly hatred breeds. Terrorism isn't like Nazi Germany: it isn't a physical entity consisting of factories and leaders: it is a mental force that permeates poor, oppressed society.

I agree completely here.
But you deal with each problem in the here and now.
You start letting terror get a hearing, you will have terror groups springing up over everything, small and large, logical or absurd.
The point I have been trying to get accross (and quite poorly, obviously) is You can't negociate with a gun pointed in your face.
Also, historically, terror groups are not as long term as some of you put forth, OBL's group isn't large, but it was able to act from western laxity (they lived and operated freely in Germany, for example), they can be torn up through vigilence.
Of course they can reform in a sympathetic Muslim state, but what state will allow it if it knows the US will respond harshly?
Think about that, men like Saddam act as they do because the US did nothing to him personally.
Now, it is being made clear there will be accountability.
We even have a historical example, Ghaddafi of Libya.
Once a major terror supporter, but when attacked and shown he would be killed if he continued, he expelled terror groups from Libya.
Want more examples?
Jordan expelled the PLO, a far more extensive terror group sucessfully.
It can be done, IF you have the will to do it.
That giant crater outside my window where the WTC was gives all the will we need.

The war on terrorism is therefore not just a war against bin Laden, against munition dumps, against bomb factories. It is vastly more than that. It is a war against hatred and oppression. America is a participant in the hatred and oppression, and if the Americans want to solve their problem and our problem once and for all, they must realize this, and change their ways.

I think the real problem is all this accusation of wrong doing.
Every time I ask for proof, I get the same old accusations.
Without FACTS, I will not accept your interpretation.

[Lemmy]

Once a major terror supporter, but when attacked and shown he would be killed if he continued, he expelled terror groups from Libya.

do you have proof that the groups are actually out of Libya?

[Chris 62]

Sattelite recon photos are availible, hard evidence.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Arrian
che, you have proof of these things?

-Arrian

Pick up a copy of Killing Hope, by William Blum and read all about it.

[Lemmy]

Sattelite recon photos are availible, hard evidence.

that's hardly proof, those satellites can't see everything.
there could still be terrorists in Libya, maybe not terrorist bases, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[chequita guevara]

Oh, I think its fairly certain that Libya was helping terrorists, but they shut things down after Gadafi's adopted daughter was murdered by the US. The recent conviction of a Libyan intelligence officer not withstanding (since the stronger evidence points to a Iranian-Syrian connection).

[Arrian]

Che,

I checked out Blum's website (I have no intention of buying his book). As he was apparently a former CIA agent, I'm sure he really does have evidence of unsavory things that agency did. If, however, the US gov't was as poweful and evil as he seems to believe, and he is busily exposing their dirty secrets, it seems to me they would have whacked him by now. Heh. There is a lot of ranting on that web site. He obviously has major beefs with his former employers and capitalism in general.

By the way, I have no doubt that the CIA has done things they shouldn't have done. I do think more oversight is required (but, of course, the more people are privy to the CIA's secrets, the more likely it is that some agent will get nailed because a congressman let some of it slip. Double-edged sword).

Anyway, time for me to go home.

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Chris 62
So much nonsense, so little fact.

I can't believe I'm still wasting time exchanging insults with you. This is absolutely getting nowhere.

That giant crater outside my window where the WTC was gives all the will we need.

Perhaps emotion has clouded your view.

In any case, why don't you give a summary of your views and points, and we'll see where it goes from there.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Arrian
Che,

I checked out Blum's website (I have no intention of buying his book). As he was apparently a former CIA agent, I'm sure he really does have evidence of unsavory things that agency did. If, however, the US gov't was as poweful and evil as he seems to believe, and he is busily exposing their dirty secrets, it seems to me they would have whacked him by now.

After Phillip Agee exposed the CIA's dirty secrets in Inside the Agency and the world didn't come crashing down for them, they've taken a more hands off aproach to former agents defecting to the American public. Getting all upset about just gives the person publicity and credibity. They did try to kill Agee when he was writing his book, but failed.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
I can't believe I'm still wasting time exchanging insults with you. This is absolutely getting nowhere.

Now your talking sense.
If you hadn't started that, it would never have gone on this long.

Perhaps emotion has clouded your view.

Not at all.

In any case, why don't you give a summary of your views and points, and we'll see where it goes from there.

The USA is fighting an all out war on terror factions.
The majority of these are based in Muslim states, and are muslim funded.
There is no way to possibly convince said terrorists to cease and desist outside of abonding Israel completely.
The enemy only understands one thing: Force.
Rational discourse and compation are seen as signs of weakness by them, and as such, serve no purpose.
Only by direct action can terror be stopped, by a combination of heavy intelligence work, intense pressure on governments that allow terror cells to move about freely, and direct confrontation when said governments refuse to stop terror.
I also believe that support for loathesome regimes such as the Saudis and Eygpt are both dangerous and against the principles I believe in.

Let me tell you something else, I'm aware of the many mistakes America has made, and does make, but I wanted YOU to realize that much of it is groundless or based on heresay, which is why I demanded facts on certain matters.
Of course the shah was US supported, but the regime that replaced him is 100 times worse to it's own people, so I don't condem the shah, but I always laugh when I hear about the "CIA" doing this or that.
US intelligence has been probaly the worst in super-power history, to say they could pull anything off is odd to say the least.

As for the Saddam thing, the accusation was that high tech guidence technology was sold to Iraq, that is the extent of said help, and it's a joke considering that most SCUD missles were lucky to land within 5KM of their intended target.
So if we sold them that, they were robbed!

Iran-Contra is another matter, a quite serious bit of evil doing, an attempt to overthrow a leagal communist government in Central America using money obtained from the sale of weapons and spare parts to Iran, a disgraceful occurence, as was the arms for hostages deal that preceded it.

To say that US policy breeds terror is just an excuse for focused hatered, no matter what the US does, as long as the alliance with Israel continues so will this terror, so there is nothing to look at or re-think, we refuse to cut them off.

We SHOULD cut off the shieks of Saudi Arabia and the strongman Mubarik, and only deal with moderates like the new King of Jordan.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Um... Mubarak is a moderate.



As for the shah... our support of him made things much worse. People blamed the US for the shah. He was a murderous, contemptable bastard and he was 'our boy'. He wasn't much better than Pinochet in terms of killing dissidents.

And furthermore, if you simply say force is the answer, then this problem will NEVER end. It'll go on as long, if not longer than the 'War on Drugs'. Force begets hatred and then force by the other side.

[Chris 62]

Hosni a moderate?

Compared to some he could be considered so, but it's interesting that he's been "elected" for 20 odd years now.