Osama bin Laden is dead

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by MarkG
so now we've started telling ourselves stuff in order to believe them....

repeat after me class:

OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
....

[Sandman]

A disappointing thread. I thought that it would have some actual evidence for bin Ladens death.

Instead what we have is an appeal to think that he is too arrogant to remain silent. Silly.

[SnowFire]

DinoDoc: I can not comment on this part because I have no knowledge of the specifics surrounding it.

I'm no expert either, but from what I understand, he's pretty much right. Islam was never terribly happy under colonialism and still remembered the crusades, but in the 20's and earlier, the intellectuals tended to be of a more modernist sort (those who deride them would say that they compromised with the West and tried to integrate it into Islam, which can never be done). Sayyid Qutb was the one who tried to get down an Islamic opposition to the West and what it stood for.

If you ever have an hour to burn and access, I recommend skimming Milestones, Qutb's main book. Some fun stuff in there. Basically he draws the distinciton between Koranically based ideas and jahyllia (sp?! memory not perfect), Arabic for the time before the coming of the Koran, so in other words confused and not really God-based. He then, needless to say, identifies pretty much all Western thought as jahyllia. he then tries to build a society based solely on the Koran, which can be a bit difficult being that while the Koran was a book big on law, it's only so large and it still doesn't cover a lot. So Mr. Qutb came up with his own answers for us. Anyway, what should be done about the jahyllia West? Basically, you shouldn't learn anything except from pious Muslims, ideally. Learning "hard" sciences from Westerners (engineering, physics) is okay, as long as you scrupuously ignore the philosophy behind it and then teach it to your kids so they don't have to go to the West to learn it. The "soft" sciences (psychology, economics) are all completely corrupted and should be completely discarded; only trust the Koran.
And oh yes, all Western seeming attempts of aid are illusory; the Crusades are still being fought, so any and all Western attempts at help are actually cynical attempts to corrupt and ruin Islam. Yup, there's nobody good-intentioned among us. Jewish bankers are involved too somehow, they're evil and also commanding the west to destroy Islam.

[Dr Strangelove]

I'm mystified. If he's dead why wouldn't al-Qeada announce it to the world? Even if he died of kidney failure they could easily blame America and make him a martyr, which is basically what they're all about. His number two could then step up and collect on the symapathy factor generated by OBL's martyrdom to re-establish his organization's pre-eminence among disgruntled Muslims.

[GeneralTacticus]

How was it cruel ?

It blamed them for a war they didn't start, stripped them of a lot of territory, and imposed a reparations bill on them that they couldn't hope to pay, as well as stripping them of their military power.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I'm mystified. If he's dead why wouldn't al-Qeada announce it to the world? Even if he died of kidney failure they could easily blame America and make him a martyr, which is basically what they're all about. His number two could then step up and collect on the symapathy factor generated by OBL's martyrdom to re-establish his organization's pre-eminence among disgruntled Muslims.

Exactly

I've seen no evidence he's dead. It would be almost impossible to keep quiet.

[MarkG]

horsie, you only agree cause you had betted on it, isnt it?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MarkG
horsie, you only agree cause you had betted on it, isnt it?

No Mark - I only betted on it because I agreed

[MarkG]

yeak, ok, right

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I'm mystified. If he's dead why wouldn't al-Qeada announce it to the world? Even if he died of kidney failure they could easily blame America and make him a martyr, which is basically what they're all about. His number two could then step up and collect on the symapathy factor generated by OBL's martyrdom to re-establish his organization's pre-eminence among disgruntled Muslims.

Because it would be saying Bush and the Yankee imperialists won, even if it's natural causes.

Let's talk about martyrdom, do people really fight harder for some dead man of the cause?

Can you think of famous martys who inspired their followers long after death?

I can't think of any off-hand, the truth is, we fear it more then the rteality would seem to dictate.

As long as people think he's alive, then his cause isn't lost and the US is embarrissed (no matter what the current spin, not getting him was a black mark for Bush and co), and new followers can see how the "great man" avoids the toothless Americans.

You admit he's dead, even if it's natual causes, some will doubt, others will say "that's it', more will just forget about it.
The hardcore will continue, but a new front man as charismic would have to be found.

Remember, TALK of Martyrs is cheap, unless he died in some flashy way he's just another dead revolutionary to most peole.

[Roland]

"Can you think of famous martys who inspired their followers long after death?"

Quickly ?

Jesus, Mani, that peruvian Indio leader from the 18th century whose name just dropped from my head (), Jeanne d'Arc, Jan Hus

[Roland]

Tupac Amaru. Holy crap, my brain....

[Chris 62]

How many are part of the modern world, Roland/

Jesus wasn't violent, and Jeanne D'arc inspired NOBODY after her death.

Jan Huss lived 6 centuries ago, Mani I never heard of.

See the common link?

None in the era of communications, all from the distant past, and of those you mentioned, how long did their movements survive them? (Jesus is ovious, but considering there is nothing but the bible that he ever lived, many argue he's just a story)

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Roland
Tupac Amaru. Holy crap, my brain....

A forgotten Inca leader is a famous martyr?

I can see why you fear for your brain.

[Roland]

"How many are part of the modern world"

How many islamists are part of the modern world ? Those figures are, so to speak, from "their" world.

"Jesus wasn't violent"

That's not so sure. Even according to the bible, he engaged in vandalism.

"Jeanne D'arc inspired NOBODY after her death."

Played a role in the end of the 100 year war, became a national myth then. Why else would Charly have bothered to have her conviction repealed and gain her sainthood ?

"Jan Huss lived 6 centuries ago"

see above, Islamists' world.

"Mani I never heard of."

Never heard of Manichäism? Was killed by some fanatic zarathustrians in Persia.

"how long did their movements survive them?"

The question should rather be how "wirkmächtig" they were, but I have no clue how to translate that beautiful term into english.

Mani - Manichäism, Gnostics, about 300 years.

Jeanne d'Arc - became part of french nationalism.

Jan Hus - at least 100 years, invoked in the czech national revival in the 10th century.

"Tupac Amaru" - had a rebel organisation named him in th 1970s IIRC, about 200 years later.