Bigotry in Islam - And Here.

[chequita guevara]

The problem isn't with Islam, per se, but how it is interpreted and practiced. In Europe, Serbian Muslims (aka Bosnians) were quite Westernized and moderate. There was a trend label, ironically enough, secular Islam, which was growing through most of this century, but was ultimately destroyed by the West because it was not sufficiently anti-Communist enough.

However, lest we think this is a problem merely with Islam, let us remember that there are fundimentalist Jewish kooks who would like to make Israel a theocracy. There are people in the US, followers of a nut called Rev. Rashdoon, who want the US to become a Biblical kingdon, where the Bible is law. The Hindu nationalists in India are just as bad as the fundimentalist Moslems.

The problem is Islam, it's religious extremism, which knows no religious boundries.

[Ecthy]

same with Turkey and even all the other countries. muslim fundamentalism dosen't exist as state attitude (no, not even in Iraq you monger)(OK, it does in Iran though), so it's all geopolitical nonsernse.

[Bereta_Eder]

I agree with che who spoke as if he was in the balkans.

[Az]

Che , I know my lunatics very well, thank you.

And I must disagree . Islam is a problem, just like all other religions, and I shall not forget "opium for the masses" as a slogan, it is true. As I've said for around 5 times in this thread, It's the rising tide of Islam , relatively to the decline of christianity, that makes me worry about Islam so much. There is no state in the world that is christian, contrary to what Osama says. There are many states that are muslim.

[Az]

oh and what about the Bosnian Mujahedeen?

[Ecthy]

Mujahedeen are Afghani

[chequita guevara]

Islamic fanaticism among the "Bosnians" was a result of the civil war. I think you'll also find that many of those mujahedeen were al-Qaeda types, Arabs and Pakistani volunteers.

The Civil War made everyone nasty and evil and do stuff that you wouldn't have thought them capable of doing. Let's face it, the Yugoslavs were one of the most tolerent societies in modern Europe. It took a lot of propaganda to get people to turn on their neighbors and family. Tudjman, Izobegovic, and Milosevic, brothers in hell.

[Monk]

Of course there are extreme jackasses everywhere, but my world view remains rotated around myself and the society I live in, and in that regard, fundamentalist Jews or Hindus just don't constitute a problem. The Muslim who shouted "hooker" at girls I know because their faces weren't covered or the Muslims who threw rocks against this year's gay parade constitute a problem because I have to live around them.

Imran, you're fully aware that just because you can get X number of people to agree with a package of ideas, it doesn't mean it can't be highly repressive in nature. Soviet-style communism was the best example, but we can both think of more. Most of these Africans don't posses the same individualism that we do, and there are countless factors at play here apart from the nature of the ideology to which they subscribe. I can't grasp how you can support political ideas of libertarian nature while at the same time be supporting a religion where the church and state are inseperable and prefabricated laws are putting severe restrictions on individual opportunities for development, such as legislation denying 50% of the population the same rights as the rest.

When that's said, do you have any comments on the first stuff I wrote?

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by Monk
Of course this is a valid point, but as far as I know, the Koran is per definition the inerrant word of God, word for word, whereas the widespread Christian perception of the Bible is different. Sure, the Bible is also supposed to be God's message to mankind, but it's generally agreed upon that it's authored by people, not God himself. This also means you can attribute some parts of the Bible to the society in which it was written, whereas the very word of God per definition would apply equally much today as it did in the days of Muhammad.

THere are Muslims that believe the Koran was divinely inspired but flawed by the nature of the vessel that translated it into the words of man. Or something like that - I'm paraphrasing something an older gent told me a few years ago. Anyway, you can hardly say that all Muslims are fundamentalists. And you can hardly say that it is generally agreed that the Bible is not the literal word of God. The Southern Baptists are literalists. As, I believe, are the Roman Catholics, according to strict church doctrine.

[Az]

I LOVED Yugoslavia. I was there as a kid with my father. He was recieving a new vessel that they built there , in Split , Croatia. The year was 1988 or so. They all called themselves Yugoslavs.
ah, memories ...

Also , I saw the Bosnian mujahedeen . they were slavs.

[Ecthy]

Dalgetti, that they called themselves Yugoslav doesn't mean enlightenment and peace and prosperity, it means opportunism. It's soemthing that doesn't surprise me. Today they have a strong leader and like the idea of peace, tomorrow, without that leader, with socialism crumbled, they prefer nationalism. It's sad, but it never had a future if you ask me. Not on the Balkans anyway. And this is not racism, it's realism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I can't grasp how you can support political ideas of libertarian nature while at the same time be supporting a religion where the church and state are inseperable and prefabricated laws are putting severe restrictions on individual opportunities for development, such as legislation denying 50% of the population the same rights as the rest.

a) I don't support the religion

and

b) Brainwashing the contrary, not every one of the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world believe in no seperation of Church and State and keeping down of women. As there are different interpretations of the Bible there are of the Koran. Religious beliefs can and are totally seperate from political beliefs. See Turkey's leaders, who are Muslim in religion, but secular in politics.

When that's said, do you have any comments on the first stuff I wrote?

Nope

[Monk]

Echinda,

OK, maybe not generally accepted. My viewpoint was slightly disturbed by the fact that I live in a country where 80% are members of a Protestant Christian church, but I've only met ten people or so, ever, who thought the Bible was to be taken absolutely literal. The point remains that the symbolic, more abstract interpretation comes more natural to Christians than Muslims.

And no, don't get me wrong - far from all Muslims are fundamentalists, but for the above mentioned reasons, I reckon there's a need for concern. As for the "flawed by the nature of the vessel" thing, I figure there could be people believing that - however, the vessel in question was an archangel, and I wouldn't expect that many Muslims to accept the statement the archangel would screw up. The Koran is the exact word of God and God's language is Arabic - the Koran says so, whereas the Bible doesn't - and that's the reason Muslims don't like using the term "translation" when it comes to translating God's word into other languages, whereas Christians don't have similar objections.

Imran,

I remember your origins are Pakistani and you were a Muslim back in the old days - I take your comment as an indicator you've changed your faith since then?

Religious beliefs can and are totally seperate from political beliefs.

They can and they should be. I'm simply pointing out that when it comes to religious loonies, I'd much rather have Christians than Muslims, because whether you admit it or not, the Koran preaches politics to a large degree whereas Jesus didn't.

[Az]

well , if they don't believe in the keeping down of women , they're not real believing muslims , heh ?

Trying to veil (no pun intended) islam as a philosophy , without any of it's other repricussions on society is wrong and misleading . We should analize religions for the better and worse . Otherwise , I'd be going around praising Confucianism as the way of life for everyone.

[Ecthy]

stop blahing around... do they keep women down in Turkey?