You're Fired - Because You're Israelis

[Roland]

"Yes, there is a religious minstry (or somesuch), but it's influence is absolutely 0 on anything."



Next thing you'll tell us is there are no fundamentalist parties in ISrael, right ?

[Zevico]

Roland, I've lived in Israel. The difference between Europe/Americ/etc. and Israel is basically that Israel has public holidays on Hanukkah instead of Christmas. Otherwise: zilch. zero. not one single thing. There are a few religious parties, I beleive, but apart from Shas, there influence is very small, and again, none of the REST of the secular parties would ever allow Shas to proclaim, for example, that everything you eat in Israel has to be kosher, or that you can't have milk+meat in a restaurant, or any other dumb law they might think of.

[Roland]

"Otherwise: zilch. zero. not one single thing."

What about Sabbath rules ?

Who is and who decides who is a "jew" for the purpose of Israeli citizenship law ?
Who is exempted from military service ?

[Zevico]

k, that's true, i forgot about it. Sabbath? It's just Saturday- I don't remember if shops are open on it (I think they are).

On the second bit: you've got me there. But whats wrong with people finding out if your jewish or not for citizenship? BTW the fundies (ie. ultra orthodox) don't run it, the orthodox do (i think). Orthodox would equate to a normal, church going christian who believes in god and all that. Think Cloud9 but much more normal and muich less fundy .

On the third bit: yeah, no one secular (ie. the majority of the country) likes that whole 'they get out of military service' bit.

OKAY, apart from those 2 or 3 things, religion doesn't really matter in Israel.

[Roland]

sabbath: I think there's always a fuzz about who may do what, like what hospitals may do etc. But I don't know enough about that to make it a point. Maybe the Israelis can tell us about it.

citizenship: first thing is of course jewish. But also they had a fuzz about reformist conversions (and marriages etc ?) not being accepted. While the ultras are accepted IIRC.

So of course it's not like Iran, but I wouldn't consider Israel as really secular as most western countries either. And many secular Israelis do not like the power of the religious parties - or ?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Zevico Palestinians who left during wars were encouraged to stay by Israelis and the Israeli Government.

Yeah right! They were encouraged to stay at gunpoint....

They were running from a war zone!

Originally posted by Zevico
As for the refusal to allow them back in-would you? An absolutely hostile Arab population that wants you dead, and you allow them back in?

Of course! And I think this sums up the whole problem. You want to think of the entire arab population as one big evil community (just as racists always do). They are individuals, and as individuals they deserve to be regarded innocent until proven guilty. You tar them all with the same brush by (implicitly) claiming that they would murder all the Jews in their beds if given the chance. This is utter nonsense.

Even the people whose rhetoric supports the suicide bombers would not necessarily take violent action themselves.

Originally posted by Zevico
On the second bit: you've got me there. But whats wrong with people finding out if your jewish or not for citizenship? .......[snip].......

OKAY, apart from those 2 or 3 things, religion doesn't really matter in Israel.

*sigh* That was the whole point! I criticised the Israeli policy of deciding on whether people could become citizens or not based on their religion/ethnicity.

You then claimed that Israel gives no preference to Judaism, declaring Israel to be a "secular state", calling me an 'idiot' and a 'moron' for suggesting that it is not.

And then you admit, after all, that it does give preference to people who are Jewish on "2 or 3 things", one of which was my original criticism.

I don't know whether to or .

[GePap]

I personally disagree with the firings of the professors, if it was based solely on association even with a government one disagrees with, since every individual has the right to associate with any group (as long as it is not planning a crime) that shares some basic joint ideology with them. If a professor in the US wants to support the Iraqi gov., it is thei right to do so, and unless they were planning a crime (espionage or anything else criminal) their connection to the Iraqi regime, no matter how much one dislikes the regime, should not be a basis for their termination. Boycotts against members of a government you disliake I feel are fine. If some institution wanted to ban entry to officials from the Israeli (or whichever) gov. for the actions of such a government, fine.

Enough of the accusations fo racism and anti-semitism in this forum! It is damn annoying. I would trully find it interesting one day if someone called a discriminator (in some form) took their accusers to court for libel (or slander) and made try to prove to a court their accusation. How many would succeed? It might scare some people straight.

Being anti-Israeli policy does not make one an anti-semite any more than being pro-Israeli policy makes one an ant-semite (remembering that Arabic and Hebrew are both of the Semitic language family)

[Ramo]

Ramo, care to elaborate? You would have preferred the apartheid system to exist? I really don't think you would, so I'm assuming you have a different reason...

First off, I assume you are referring to boycotts against doing business with all South African people. I have no problems with boycotts against their government (i.e. the armament boycott) or certain SA businesses.

IMO, total boycotts not only hurt the people they are intended to help (at least, in the short term), but generally help to consolidate government support. I think the Apartheid regime would've collapse all the same without this kind of pressure.

[Ecthy]

Some of you represent the reason why I don't debate here. So full of insults and bigoty.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Sometimes I think I am in a sort of strange twilight zone, where I type in one thing and it appears on people's screens as another. Or perhaps it is just a matter of English reading comprehension....

*sigh*
You are confusing yourself.

You said "this is not about nationality"
But then you yourself admitted it is completely about nationality, since, if they severe their ties with Israel, they stop being of the Israeli nationality.

These people will read into any post whatever they want to. On the brighter side, at least they admitted that it wasn't actually anti-semitic.

I'm happy to be reffered to as "they". I never thought I'd get better treatment.

'Sirotnikov' is a Ukrainian name as already pointed out. I think it is rather unethical of the Israeli state to regard someone who's descendents have lived outside of Israel/Palestine for so long that their name reflects some other region as acceptable candidates for residence and citizenship, while declining the same for people whose family has lived in the area for generations.

Interesting.

I think that a great deal of English, are not of English origin, but come from north europe, and recently from brittish colonies.

I also think that about 97% of north americans, are not of north american origin, but rather european. I know that these europeans have no link to the land they occupy, other than conquering it by force.

Jews on the countrary, had several kingdoms and forms of autonomy, across a period of 1000 years, and their last slef reign ended some 600 years before the Muslim conquest, and the following immigration by Arabs and Syrians in the much later centuries.

Furthermore, as Palestinians themselves would testify, Palestine has always been considered a province of Syria. If you open Arab newspapers and writing from the end of the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th, you'd see reference to Palestine as a Syrian province.

Therefore, many people who claim to this area, have not actually occupied the area currently known as Israel, but rather occupied other areas of Syria / Palestine, and immigrated to Palestine beginning from the latter part of the 19th century.

That is not to say that Siro shouldn't be allowed to be Israeli (after all, he was probably born there himself), but it is rather hypocritical to not allow the people now living in 'Palestine' the right of return too.

Nope, I was born in the USSR and immigrated here when I was 6.

It's true that it is to some point hypocritical. But that has no relevance in the Real World ^TM.

Why can't palestinains return?

1) they are hostile. if you want, take a look at the demonstrations in camps around the ME, every time a terract succeeds.

2) they are 4.5 million, and could change the demographical situation in Israel, which would change it's nature so that it will no longer be a Jewish state. Or they can decide to reunite with Palestine, and simply "cancel" Israel.

3) They are not the only displaced population as a result of the conflict. some 800,000 Jews were displaced forcefully, or fled Arab nations in the same time period and later, due to persecutions against them. Israel, on it's own took care of those new immigrants. Now it has to take care of the other side as well?

Next thing you'll tell us is there are no fundamentalist parties in ISrael, right ?

Parties are different from ministry.

I'm sure you can see how electoral power and lobbies affect politics. If not, I suggest you check up on your parliament.

What about Sabbath rules ?

apply only to jews... duh.

muslims have friday rules by their own ministry.
christians have sunday.

Who is and who decides who is a "jew" for the purpose of Israeli citizenship law ?

The state of israel, the ministry of interior. That's a question that is continuosly under public debate.

[q]Who is exempted from military service ?[/q
The exemption is not based in law, but rather in an agreement signed between ben gurion and the religious rulers on the eve of 1948. And now it's a very serious prooblem for Israel, one which the secular sector seeks to solve.

They were running from a war zone!

A war dictated by the arabs.

You want to think of the entire arab population as one big evil community

Who said evil? you say evil.
Hostile is hostile. You want to be pretty and ignore reality, go ahead. There's no doubt that the population is hostile, both due to circumstances and incitement.

They are individuals, and as individuals they deserve to be regarded innocent until proven guilty.

What a stupid irrlevenat arguement. We're not judging them or punishing them. It's a hostile population which can't be relocated here, because it will wreak havoc and change Israel forever.

Besides, you yourself said that the Americans didn't allow soviets in the USA, because they were regarded hostile.

You tar them all with the same brush by (implicitly) claiming that they would murder all the Jews in their beds if given the chance. This is utter nonsense.

Do you really suppose that we are going to check 4 million people, to see who really can be relied upon not to destroy Israel?

Even if they don't have malicious intent, the demographic and social changes will have huge effects on Israel, which Israel does not want to bear.

We're not talking about 100,000 or 500,000 people. We're talking 4,500,000.

I criticised the Israeli policy of deciding on whether people could become citizens or not based on their religion/ethnicity.

It's called "ethnical democracy". It exists in germany, poland, russia and probably other palces as well. Welcome to the real world.

You then claimed that Israel gives no preference to Judaism, declaring Israel to be a "secular state", calling me an 'idiot' and a 'moron' for suggesting that it is not.

Again you confuse Judaism with Jewishness.
one can be a jew without believing in Judaism.

As far as converting goes - because judaism is a very unique religion, related to a specific culture and ethnicity, converting to judaism means that the person wishes to tie his destiny with that of the jewish people.

The corelation between Judaism and Jews is very unique, and a parallel doesn't exist in Christianity or Islam.

And then you admit, after all, that it does give preference to people who are Jewish on "2 or 3 things", one of which was my original criticism.

The preference is in immigration laws, nothing more. And the same prefernce exists in germany and poland and russia.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Also, the palastinians do not have a 'wide choice' of where they can go, since no islamic country is willing to take them. And why should they? Would the US take christians from lebanon and make them citizens simply because they are christians?

I know several Arab-Americans who are Christians from Lebanon. The American government doesn't exactly give special preference to them, but they are allowed in.

The same can not be said of the Palestinians who are being used as bargaining chips by the Arab states.

If the Christian community in Lebanon were threatened by Muslim Arabs, I'm willing to bet that right-wing elements of the US would advocate a pro-Christian stance, and allowing refugees to freely enter the country. Just another example of our own bigotries I suppose, but one that I'm pretty proud of.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh

Since I made an ambiguous comment about Sirotnikov's name, I should probably explain what I believe. 'Sirotnikov' is a Ukrainian name as already pointed out. I think it is rather unethical of the Israeli state to regard someone who's descendents have lived outside of Israel/Palestine for so long that their name reflects some other region as acceptable candidates for residence and citizenship, while declining the same for people whose family has lived in the area for generations.

As far as I can see, the distinction can only be based apon ethnicity and/or religion (depending on how you want to define 'Jew'). I think that is wrong.

That is not to say that Siro shouldn't be allowed to be Israeli (after all, he was probably born there himself), but it is rather hypocritical to not allow the people now living in 'Palestine' the right of return too.

Rogan,

My mistake. I thought your comment was an ethnic slur, which really pis$ed me off. There was a lot of similar prejudice against anyone with a Slavic name here in the U.S. because so many Jews emigrated from the Slavic part of Europe in the last century, and so many people were anti-semitic bigots. Your comment sounded just like one of those bigots turning down someone for a job because their name "sounded Jewish", (ie sounded Slavic). My apologies. I still don't agree with you, but I'll happily turn down the volume.

[Roland]

Siro:

"I'm happy to be reffered to as "they". I never thought I'd get better treatment."

What is that supposed to mean ?

"Parties are different from ministry. I'm sure you can see how electoral power and lobbies affect politics. If not, I suggest you check up on your parliament."

I'm sure you can see that in a broader assessment of secularism, this is an ADDITIONAL yet RELEVANT point.

"What about Sabbath rules ? - apply only to jews... duh."

That wasn't the issue. Are there state rules based on religious rules ? If so, on which version of religious rules are they based ? And can we agree that religious rules play a special role in judaism ?

"Who is and who decides who is a "jew" for the purpose of Israeli citizenship law ?- The state of israel, the ministry of interior. That's a question that is continuosly under public debate."

Well again, on what is that decision based ?

I have no problem with an "ethnic" democracy, nor with the fact that in the special case of Israel it is tied into religion. But that means that state can't be fully secular. And the religion problem shines through on several issues like military service, citizenship etc.

[Heresson]

Explenation; Poland isn't giving Polish citizenship to Poles
of other countries because they are Poles. It gives it sometimes to the citizens of Poland that were sent by Russians into lagers and to Syberia/Kazakhstan.
Anyway we don't spend money on that, ilocal authorities can pay for "repatriation" of them if they want, so we do not
force our non-Polish citizens to pay for it, unlike Israel