Don't ignore Greek terrorism

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


You are a country with a population around 11 million.

If you're not counting the immigrants, yes.

Before this week's events, you knew that 17N members circulated within an area smaller than Central Park.

Not the brians of the organization. We want the big fish not just the small ones.

Despite all that, the Americans have made more progress against Al-Qaeda, a worldwide threat, than the Greek police have made against 17N in over 2 decades.

You have lost thousands of people and are inr esponce murdering more thousands.

I woulnd't call that a success. More like a failure which is in part justified by the fact that half the world doesnt like you and according to some for good reason

We have lost "only" 23 people in a time of 26 years whole years which makes us the best in this field.

Note that I say 23 and I am counting americans and others in it because thats the humanitarian I am.

Really, you cant compare with us. The candles you have to light is testimony enough.

And it's not over yet for you. (according to your own officials - not a matter of if but a matter of when...)

[Ned]

Originally posted by paiktis22


#1 to instigate the people to revolt and form a communist/socialist society

#2 to get Greece out of NATO and the EU

#3 to ridicule americans and westerners

paiktis, welcome to the n17!

[Bereta_Eder]

Ned, you wanted Greece out of NATo and that's exactly what 17N wants too... Now if you only look like an arab too you're toast in the US

(I also want NATO dissolved BTW)

[Bereta_Eder]

Ned, seriously, ridiculing is one thing, but killing is another.

I can ridicule with words quite a different thing to redicule by actions and killing.

+I like the EU and dont want a communist society just as the the Greeks dont either.

Not that this is your business anyway.

[Ned]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Ned, seriously, ridiculing is one thing, but killing is another.

I can ridicule with words quite a different thing to redicule by actions and killing.

+I like the EU and dont want a communist society just as the the Greeks dont either.

Not that this is your business anyway.

paiktis, I know you are not a killer even though you share many of the N17 objectives.

I also see the way you and other Greeks feel about the Turks and the Germans - and about Americans as well. To the extent we were involved in your coup, we deserve the current hard feelings.

As to Greece and NATO, I think generally it ought to be dissolved because there is no major external threat to Europe anymore. Moreover, many Europeans want us out. If we insist that NATO continue, we would simply be interfering in European internal affairs by preventing it from developing a European Armed Forces. Unless we have really changed and want to become another British or Roman Empire, we should just bug out.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ned, that's fine but how do I know that you're not a killer?


About the feelings against people. Greeks dont have a beef with noone.


Now if americans interfered in the Junta in Greece, yes I think you desrved some form of punishment, as your officials have already received it by 17N, but I dont think that was the correct way because it is not healthy for a democracy to have such a group in its ranks.

Also 17N does not represent the Greek people. The latter were indeed angry at the bombing of Yugoslavia for example but they didnt agree with the killing of the brit attache.

17N wants the favor of the people. It wants the US to act so that the Greek people will rally against the US.

About common ideas with 17N, there is a difference.

I share some of their beliefs as many Greeks do.

For example I agree with the NATO is history part.

But I dont agree with their methods.

[Bereta_Eder]

But what you have to udnerstand is that it is history being written right now in Greece!

This is a great point in modern Greek history!
One that will be remembered for a long time.

To rid our country from the spectre of terrorism is a great feat.

It does not matter that this terrorism doesnt threaten us. (since 17N WANTS the favor of the greek people as I said)

What matters is that it is not heatlhy to have it in a parliemenatry, democratic Greece IMO.


This is history written my friend!

[seraphin]

@ned

im from FRG.

Moreover, many Europeans want us out.

indeed....especially I want you out

If we insist that NATO continue, we would simply be interfering in European internal affairs by preventing it from developing a European Armed Forces.

you commit industrial espionage to us in its worst possible ways and on the other hand you abuse yr time by worrying about interference in our internal affairs by nato?!?
we dont need "european armed forces: we have seen enough war crimes in europe ,we dont need to start our owns around the globe as you do!
btw:for us resources are not that important ,cause we kept word and made kyoto become true...and our economy (which u blame near death on yr global low-iq tv channels every day is strong enough ,to compete without having an highest tech trillion dollar "subvention" (dont know the word sorry) system as yours seems to need.i more and more consider this the main reason why you support that armed forces).

Unless we have really changed and want to become another British or Roman Empire, we should just bug out.

dont get my wrong: i like you - simply cause i like human beings.i dont hate you or your country ,but...
...this is ridiculous - absolutely irreal and cynical

take a look at a world map and show me country were you never commited war crime,were you never had stationed troops (peacefully),were you never waged war,were you never incited a revolt,were you never manipulated an election were you never commited really heavy industrial espionage and i will call you angels.

[seraphin]

ah...dont bother me with canada and uk

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by seraphin
@ned

im from FRG.


indeed....especially I want you out

you commit industrial espionage to us in its worst possible ways and on the other hand you abuse yr time by worrying about interference in our internal affairs by nato?!?
we dont need "european armed forces: we have seen enough war crimes in europe ,we dont need to start our owns around the globe as you do!
btw:for us resources are not that important ,cause we kept word and made kyoto become true...and our economy (which u blame near death on yr global low-iq tv channels every day is strong enough ,to compete without having an highest tech trillion dollar "subvention" (dont know the word sorry) system as yours seems to need.i more and more consider this the main reason why you support that armed forces).

dont get my wrong: i like you - simply cause i like human beings.i dont hate you or your country ,but...
...this is ridiculous - absolutely irreal and cynical

take a look at a world map and show me country were you never commited war crime,were you never had stationed troops (peacefully),were you never waged war,were you never incited a revolt,were you never manipulated an election were you never commited really heavy industrial espionage and i will call you angels.

well said.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by paiktis22

false

17N never threatened Greeks BTW.

ehhmm... I think that 17N has killed more Greeks than "westerners".

17N is no doubt a TO but it has never threatened/targeted the general public. Unlike a lot of other TO through out the world from East to West I have never felt threatened in Greece. Now that changes if you are a tourist in Spain (Basque), in the States (and I am not talking about 911) there is enough "domestic" terrorism, or in the Phillipines with the Abu Sayeff (spelling ) group.

I think that there should be a warning issued to all travelers/tourists that are actually travelling to the States. It for sure is more dangerous to walk in East St. Louis or even parts of Washington DC and other metropolitan areas at night than any other place in Greece or Europe for that matter.

[Bereta_Eder]

Pioner you are absolutely right.

Good to see someone who knows what his talking about.

howver I was talking about the Greek people. (or peoples). The general public as you said.

The reason it hasnt is because it wants to get them on its side...

BTW you ambassador here has been very correct about his assesment of both the group and the situation.

[The Pioneer]

That's correct Paikti!

Unlike the IRA, the Basque Organisation, Al Quaeda, RAF, Aby Sayaff and others the 17N has never ever targeted tourists or the public. That's one of the points that make the organisation different than the rest. I cannot emphasize enough how important this small difference is. It's a TO like all the others but one that doesn't scare the public in Greece and therefore has been spared all the scorn and wrath that others have caused upon them by their own doing.

I challenge anybody that has actually walked in any of the bigger metropolitan areas in the US and in Greece to tell me that he felt safer in the States and I would actually like to hear the arguments.

Greece has been, is and will be (hopefully) a safe country (that's if you take traffic accidents out of the consideration).

As far as the Olympics goes I think they will as safe as in any other country. I only wonder why hasn't the police caught the suspect (an american) of the Atlanta Olympics games bombing yet. CNN had a report lately saying that he's most probably been hiding in the woods for the past years. Now who is incompetent?
Actually that's not all you need (competence) you actually need a little luck and it seems that the Greek police has had a little as of late .

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by The Pioneer
That's correct Paikti!

Unlike the IRA, the Basque Organisation, Al Quaeda, RAF, Aby Sayaff and others the 17N has never ever targeted tourists or the public. That's one of the points that make the organisation different than the rest. I cannot emphasize enough how important this small difference is. It's a TO like all the others but one that doesn't scare the public in Greece and therefore has been spared all the scorn and wrath that others have caused upon them by their own doing.

I challenge anybody that has actually walked in any of the bigger metropolitan areas in the US and in Greece to tell me that he felt safer in the States and I would actually like to hear the arguments.

Greece has been, is and will be (hopefully) a safe country (that's if you take traffic accidents out of the consideration).

As far as the Olympics goes I think they will as safe as in any other country. I only wonder why hasn't the police caught the suspect (an american) of the Atlanta Olympics games bombing yet. CNN had a report lately saying that he's most probably been hiding in the woods for the past years. Now who is incompetent?
Actually that's not all you need (competence) you actually need a little luck and it seems that the Greek police has had a little as of late .

Pioneer again, spot on

Also besides the fact that 17N has not attacked the general public it has also NOT gone through the tranformation that other TO in Europe have gone through.

Namely going from a small, closed revolutionary team of very few people to an all out urban guerilla werfare group.

You may remember that the Red Brigades after a while actually got expanded and tried to procylitisize more and more people into their ranks.

17N never did that and stayed very cloed and thus very difficult to caught.
The lack of training of the Greek police (Greece has the lowest crime rate in the EU accrding to Eurostat) only made matters more difficult and the fact that the public was not threatened didnt turn it against them too.

And you are absolutely correct when talking about luck.
It seems that The Goddess of Luck finally smiled upon the whole thing


Still I'm not overly optimistic. The brains (the leaders) of 17N remain elusive. Still the greek police was never closer to them and also the TO has lost its "teeth" (namely the bulk of its weapons).

[axi]

If they really wanted to, the 17N members could recommence a big wave of attacks, like they had done in 1989-1992. All they have to do is make a short trip to Albania or Kossovo, come back with a truckload of weapons and start using them. But they do not want to. After the Saunders murder, they are inactive.