The US will soon run out of allies if it keeps acting like this

[KrazyHorse]

Read on. I think the declaration of war by Briton and France was entirely justified. However, the point I am making is that "at the time," many in the US would still have preferred negotiations to war. This is partially why the US stood by and did virtually nothing for the first two years of the European war

When Iraq starts gobbling up its neighbours like Germany did, then feel free to go in. Until then, it's vengeance for something that happened 10 years ago.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Ahhh, another US vs. EU circle jerk.

Does Mark L start any other kind? Sadly, it his only troll and he seems to be loosing his touch at them.

PS You really should decide on a specialty. Or are you planning on being a GP?

[Guynemer]

Bah. I got lots of time to decide on a specialty. How can I decide before I've even tried anything yet?

[Saint Marcus]

Hitler and Saddam, however, are quite comparable.

That's the stupist thing I've heard in a long time.

how many people did Hitler kill? And how many Sadam?

Does Mark L start any other kind? Sadly, it his only troll and he seems to be loosing his touch at them.

I would be hurt if it wasn't for this:

Thread: The US will soon run out of allies if it keeps acting like this

By: Saint Marcus

Replies: 152

Views: 938

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Bah. I got lots of time to decide on a specialty. How can I decide before I've even tried anything yet?

Bah! You just don't want people to annoy you at parties, yet.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
I would be hurt if it wasn't for this:

You count too much on the help of you European compatriots to save your thread. It isn't a true measure of your work.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


That's the stupist thing I've heard in a long time.

how many people did Hitler kill? And how many Sadam?

The numbers differential is because Iraq is no Germany.

Saddam failed to conquer Iran. He did conquer Kuwait, but was rolled back. He alone among present leaders has used WoMD on his enemies. He continues to issue threats against the US, Briton and Israel while developing WoMD. The guy is indistiguishable from der Fuhrer.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Bah! You just don't want people to annoy you at parties, yet.

Note to self: kill DinoDoc. He knows too much.

[Alexander's Horse]

The U.S. was once the biggest supporter of an ICJ.

But now its ally Israel could find its *** in a wringer.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
The U.S. was once the biggest supporter of an ICJ.

But now its ally Israel could find its *** in a wringer.

AH, did you read that blub from Lincoln at 01-07-2002 09:03 where the reason the US, once a very big fan of the ICC, suddenly changed its tune when Ramsey Clark charged Clinton, et al. for war crimes in Yugoslavia (Bosnia and Kosovo)? Well here is the entire indictment for your reading pleasure:

Text of the indictment prepared by Ramsey Clark.

The List of Charges

The Complaint



This Complaint is presented to end the scourge of war, prevent future violations of fundamental human rights, protect international and national organizations, governments and institutions and to hold those convicted of the violations alleged accountable for their acts.



The Governments, Organizations and Individuals named herein are charged with:

Crimes against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity and Other Offenses in Violation of the Principles of the Nuremberg Tribunal (Nuremberg), the Hague Regulations (Hague) and Geneva Conventions (Geneva) and Other International and National Laws;

Grave Violations of the Charter of the United Nations (UN Charter), the North Atlantic Treaty (NAT), other international treaties, International Law, the Federal Constitution and Domestic Laws of the United States, the Basic Laws of Other Nations Including the United Kingdom, the Federal Republic of Germany, Turkey, the Netherlands, Hungary, Italy, Spain and other Governments of NATO members and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Grave Violations of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), the Genocide Convention, and Other International Covenants, Conventions, Treaties, Declarations and Domestic Laws named herein.







A. Defendants

1. President William J. Clinton, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Secretary of Defense William Cohen and Commanding Generals, Admirals, U.S. personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the U.S. military bomber and assault aircraft, U.S. military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the United States personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

2. The United Kingdom, Prime Minister Tony Blair, the Foreign Minister, the Defense Minister and Commanding Generals, Admirals, U.K. personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the U.K. military bomber and assault aircraft, U.K. military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the United Kingdom personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

3. The Federal Republic of Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, the Foreign Minister, the Defense Minister and Commanding Generals, Admirals, German personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the German military bomber and assault aircraft, German military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the Federal Republic of Germany personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

4. The Government of every NATO country that participated directly in the assaults on Yugoslavia with aircraft, missiles, or personnel and Commanding Generals, Admirals, NATO personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the NATO military bomber and assault aircraft, NATO military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the governments of the NATO countries’ personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.

5. The Governments of Turkey, Hungary, Italy and others who permitted the use of airbases on their territory to be used by U.S., or other military aircraft and missiles for direct assault on Yugoslavia.

6. The North American Treaty Organization (NATO), Secretary General Javier Solano, Supreme Commander, General Wesley K. Clark

7. For Condemnation: Each NATO member that voted to authorize military assaults on Yugoslavia.







B. The Charges

1. Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and Impoverishment of Yugoslavia.

The United States, Germany, NATO and other defendants engaged in a course of conduct beginning in, or before 1991 intended to break the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia into many parts, segregate different ethnic, religious and other groups among and within newly balkanized borders, weaken the Slav, Serb, Muslim and other populations by causing and prolonging internal violence and by direct assaults by the United States and certain NATO members. As a consequence Yugoslavia, which had 25 million people in an integrated society and economy, is now comprised of many small nations, the largest of which is Serbia. Defendants intend to divide Yugoslavia until all parts of Yugoslavia have fewer than 5 million people, each to be overwhelmingly of a single ethnic origin and religion, to have severely impaired economies largely dominated by foreign interests, in which two groups, Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslims suffer severest casualties, most extensive property damage, a vast reduction of productivity now down by three-quarters or more, and a generation of impoverishment.

UN Charter; Declaration on the Inadmissibility of Intervention in the Domestic Affairs of States and the Protection of their Independence and Sovereignty (Non Intervention Decl.), 1965 USGA Res. 2131.



2.Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence between Muslims and Slavs.

The United States and other defendants engaged in a course of conduct beginning in or before 1991, to cause Muslims and Orthodox Christian Slavs to engage in protracted fratricidal violence, in wars of attrition, similar to conflicts in Afghanistan and Chechnya between Muslims and Russian Slavs, which caused death, destruction and division in Bosnia, Kosovo and elsewhere between the groups and dangerous frictions and enmity between two major enemies of the U.S., Slavic peoples and Muslims, in other regions, weakening both. Tactics included both providing and depriving select Muslim groups of arms to attack others, or adequately defend themselves in Bosnia; motivating, training and supplying KLA with arms to attack Yugoslav police and military to seize control of Kosovo during NATO occupation and attack Serbs and others; preventing outside efforts to prevent and control the violence; committing, causing and condoning violence against persons displaced by U.S. and NATO bombing campaigns, and by KLA and Yugoslav police and military ground actions; causing and supporting clashes between Yugoslav military/police/civilian groups and KLA/paramilitary/civilian groups; condoning and failing to prevent assaults on displaced persons returning to and persons who remained in Kosovo, both before and after the NATO/U.S. occupation of Kosovo. In 1999, the U.S. caused the largest numbers of deaths, injuries and destruction by aerial and missile assaults against all elements in the population and its life support systems.

UN Charter, Art. 2; Non Intervention Decl.; Resolution on the Definition of Aggression (Res. on Aggression), 1997 UNGA Res. 3314.



3. Preventing and Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in Yugoslavia.

From the beginning of its efforts to implement its plans for dismemberment and destruction of Yugoslavia, the U.S. acted to prevent any interference, negotiation, or other efforts within Yugoslavia, or by other nations, leaders, or individuals to prevent the accomplishment of its intended purposes. Its techniques included political, military and economic threats and control of highly publicized peace negotiations much like those at Dayton, Ohio, during the Bosnia struggle, at Rambouillet, France, in 1999, which created an appearance of earnest peace negotiations, but offered Yugoslavia only two choices, agree to foreign military occupation, or expect a devastating military assault.

UN Charter; Non Intervention Declaration; Resolution on Aggression; Pact of Paris 1928, Art I and II.



4. Destroying the Peace-Making Role of the United Nations.

The United States acted and coerced other nations to act to block the United Nations from performing its duties under the UN Charter to prevent conflict, control violence and maintain peace in Yugoslavia in violation of the Charter of the UN and threatening its viability as a international institution capable of maintaining peace and ending the scourge of war.

UN Charter; Non Intervention Decl.; Resolution on Aggression, Pact of Paris 1928, Art I and II.



5. Using NATO for Military Aggression against and Occupation of Non-Compliant Poor Countries.

The United States acted and coerced other nations to act to cause NATO to authorize direct military assaults on Yugoslavia in violation of the UN Charter and the North Atlantic Treaty relying overwhelmingly on U.S. weaponry and military technology and to cause NATO members to provide and finance the majority of the military forces to occupy Kosovo for the foreseeable future thereby employing the wealth and power of the rich former colonial powers of Europe against the poor and defenseless people of Yugoslavia.

United Nations Charter; North Atlantic Treaty 1949, Art. I.





6. Killing and Injuring a Defenseless Population throughout Yugoslavia.

Beginning on, or before March 24, 1999, the United States, without a declaration of war by the Congress, aided and abetted by certain NATO members, including the United Kingdom, Germany, Turkey, Spain and the Netherlands, as well as Hungary, Croatia, Italy and others, commenced a war of missile and aerial bombing assaults, often indiscriminate in its targeting, against the populations of Yugoslavia, intentionally killing and injuring many thousands of Serbs, Albanians, Romas, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics, foreign nationals throughout Yugoslavia with malice aforethought.

Hague, Art. 22 and 23; Geneva 1949, Art. 19; Nuremberg, Principle VI a, b and c; U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 8, cl. II.



*** It goes on like this for many counts. ***



C. Relief Sought

1. Freedom for all Balkan peoples to form a federation of their choice to provide political, civil, social, economic and cultural independence and viability for all the peoples of the region.

2. Comprehensive efforts to create mutual respect, common interests and bonds of friendship among and between Muslims, Slavs and all national, ethnic and religious groups in the Balkans.

3. Strict prohibition on all forms of foreign interference with or disruption of efforts to establish unity, peace and stability in the Balkans.

4. Restoration of peace-making functions of the UN and reform of the UN to make it effective.

5. The abolition of NATO.

6. Full accountability by individuals and governments for criminal and other wrongful military assaults and economic injustice, including sanctions inflicted on all the people of Yugoslavia, their lives, resources, properties and environment to include criminal prosecutions and reparations sufficient to place all the population in the condition it would be in had it not suffered the wrongs inflicted on it, together with resources with which to build a better future of the peoples’ choice.

7. Abolition of the illegal ad hoc international criminal tribunal for Yugoslavia and reliance on a legal international tribunal of worldwide non-discriminatory jurisdiction capable of equal justice under the law.

8. Providing adequate media access to inform the world of the human destructiveness of the use of high technology weapons by the U.S. against poor and defenseless people and the practice of genocide by sanctions.

9. Removing all foreign troops from the Balkans at the earliest feasible moment and U.S. troops from NATO countries and elsewhere immediately.

A broader range of relief and reform may be found in Chapter 12 of The Fire This Time. It is drawn from the experiences and recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry and the International War Crimes Tribunal, which heard evidence in 20 countries concerning the assault on Iraq in 1991, the continuing assaults on Iraq thereafter and the genocidal sanctions that continue to this day.



Scope of the Inquiry

The Commission of Inquiry will focus on U.S. criminal conduct, aided and abetted by NATO, because of the dominant U.S. role in the military and other wrongful acts against Yugoslavia. The U.S. did not incur a single casualty to itself while causing thousands of deaths in Yugoslavia. The U.S. is also the focus because of the peril of continuing U.S. conduct to all the people of Yugoslavia and the risk of aerial and missile strikes against other nations in view of its recidivist record.

The Commission of Inquiry will seek and accept evidence of criminal acts by any person or government, related to the conflict, because it believes international law must be applied uniformly. It believes that "victors’ justice" is not law, but the extension of war by force of the prevailing party. U.S. propaganda and international media coverage demonized Yugoslavia, its leadership, Serbs and Muslims to fit its purposes, but rarely noticed the criminal destruction of Yugoslavia by U.S. acts as set forth in this complaint.

Comprehensive efforts to gather and evaluate evidence, objectively judge all the conduct that constitutes crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity and to present these facts for judgment to the court of world opinion requires that any serious fair effort focus on the United States. The Commission of Inquiry believes its focus on U.S. criminal acts is important, proper, and the only way to bring the whole truth, a balanced perspective and impartiality in application of legal process to this great human tragedy.



Ramsey Clark

July 30, 1999


International Action Center
39 West 14th Street, Room 206
New York, NY 10011
email: iacenter@iacenter.org

http://www.iacenter.org

phone: 212 633-6646
fax: 212 633-2889

[- Groucho -]

How long do i have to wait before I can safely say St. marcus et al are unable to answer my post and thus lose the argument?

[Alexander's Horse]

What post?

[- Groucho -]

It's back on page three or four. I made some good points, too, but it's been assigned to the dustbin of history now, I guess.

[DinoDoc]

I tried to get them to answer it but they refused.

[Alexander's Horse]

I didn't read it.