EU Hypocrisy - Redux

[Adalbertus]

Ned, it is mainly you and a handful others why my esteem for America is in a rapid decline (and I know there are a few orders of magnitude more American posters on Apolyton). Get your vision right: Did Sharon resign for this massacre? No. You are supporting a terrorist. (Not that there weren't other terrorists with different colours in the region).

[Ned]

Kropotkin, Well, I believe our good friend Saint Marcus started it all a while back in a discussion on the ICC. Then it was the Americans who were hypocrits.

Honestly, I recalled being shocked by the events in Lebanon. I was even more shocked by what happened in Sebrenicia. After all, this took place in Europe, which I had assumed was a civilized place where this kind of thing just could not happen. But it did -- with Dutch complicity.

[Roland]

What a load of bull****.

You could find loads of political hypocrisy, in individual EU countries or at the EU level. The amusing thing is that you don't have a freakin' clue what you are talking about.

[Keygen]

I would say put both in trial.
Letting such mascacres under your nose, purposly or not, should be considered and treatted as crimes.

Sharon has a second reason to be put on trial for killing innocent people in Jennin...

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Ned

Honestly, I recalled being shocked by the events in Lebanon. I was even more shocked by what happened in Sebrenicia. After all, this took place in Europe, which I had assumed was a civilized place where this kind of thing just could not happen. But it did -- with Dutch complicity.

Crimes were, are and will always happen on "Civilized" or not places...

[Sikander]

The two situations differ a lot, but the most salient difference is that the Israelis were more or less capable of of controlling the situation going on in Lebanon, while the Dutch Battalion was not. The Israelis were negligent to some extent, but I don't think they actually tried to create a massacre of innocents. The Dutch were perhaps guilty of putting men into harms way who were extraordinarily unprepared to do the right thing. Both situations were tragedies. IMO the vast majority of the efforts to bring people to justice should be spent on the actual perpetrators rather than those who perhaps could have or even should have prevented these incidents.

[CyberGnu]

Well, CyberGnu, while the pious Europeans are having a field day condemning America for our refusal to ratify the ICC, at the same time they opt out of responsibility for war crimes during their service in Afganistan.

Now the Belgians may try Sharon for crimes against humanity committed in Lebanon. But again, not one peep from the pious Europeans about their own dirty laundry in Sebrenicia. (If you really are "Europeans," Sebrenicia is a European criminal act, not a criminal act of some clueless Dutch commander.)

Your f*cking piety makes me sick. You have absolutely no right to look down your noses at the rest of the world and tell them about your moral superiority. The EU is filled with hypocrits.

Still not a peep about Jurg Heider.

Ironically, while your post still does not deal with hypocrisy, you are actually a hypocrite for not dealing with your own hypocrisy... Followed me on that one? Let me explain:

You accused europeans of hypocrisy. (Even though the situation you decribed is not hypocrisy.) Morally reprehensible, if it was true, but not hypocritical.

When I pointed out that an actual act of hypocrisy is Israels condemnation of Jurg Heider while having a war criminal in power, you refused to acknowledge that.

So, since the definition of hypocrisy is condemning others for acts you perform yourself, you are being hypocritical when you accuse others of being hypocritical while being a hypocrite.


What is the moral of all this?

Well, don't use a word like hypocrite unless you know what it means...

[CyberGnu]

Oh, BTW, there are still french parliamentary hearings going on about this. Until they are finished it would be hasty do make any judgements.

[Ned]

CyberGnu, I would have commented on Heider, but I don't know a thing about it.

Bravo France for looking into this event!

[Roland]

The freakin' idiot goes by the name of Jörg Haider.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
Ned, it is mainly you and a handful others why my esteem for America is in a rapid decline (and I know there are a few orders of magnitude more American posters on Apolyton). Get your vision right: Did Sharon resign for this massacre? No. You are supporting a terrorist. (Not that there weren't other terrorists with different colours in the region).

Adalbertus, I think Sharon should stand trial before an international tribunal. I said the same thing in another thread concerning Senator Kerrey. I don't know if they are guilty, but the evidence does not look good in both cases.

I also think the good Chairman Arafat should stand trial for decades of atrocities.

Regarding the Dutch - they had the responsibility to protect those citizens of Sebrenicia. Instead, they handed them over knowing what might happen to them. If Sharon is guilty, so are the Dutch.

[CyberGnu]

Roland, can you fill Ned in?

France are pretty much bound to look into it. A french guy was the supreme commander in the area. He is the one who is responsible for the actions of the troops under his command (exactly like Sharon was responsible for his troops.)

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Ned
they opt out of responsibility for war crimes during their service in Afganistan

i'll quote myself from the other thread

"may not be surrendered to, or otherwise transferred to, the custody of an international tribunal or any other entity or state without the express consent of the contributing nation."

so the afganistan goverment agreed not to hand over any british soldiers if they actually get them in the first place

nothing to do with whether these soldiers can be put in trial in the international court....

[CyberGnu]

Adalbertus, I think Sharon should stand trial before an international tribunal.

I think you should have made that very clear from the beginning of the thread. to the best of my knowledge, you are the only israeli apologizer who thinks Sharon should stand trial.

[CyberGnu]

Regarding the Dutch - they had the responsibility to protect those citizens of Sebrenicia. Instead, they handed them over knowing what might happen to them. If Sharon is guilty, so are the Dutch.

IIUIC, Sharons defense was 'I didn't know'. Janviers defense was 'we feared for the life of our men, and were forced to withdraw'.

Quite different situations.