American position on the PA

[Ned]

The Bush administration admits it has no contingency plan if Arafat is re-elected. I expect, though, that the Israeli's do. With no hope for a deal that will end the bombing, they will act. What I expect they will do is terminate the PA and arrest Arafat.

They may then begin negotiations with Jordan and Egypt to return the territories to their respective jurisdictions.

[Sava]

Hey Saint Marcus....

On Feb. 27, 1933, a fire destroyed part of the Reichstag building. Hitler immediately accused the Communists of having set the fire. President von Hindenburg proclaimed a state of emergency and issued decrees suspending freedom of speech and assembly. The elections gave a bare majority of seats to Hitler's National Socialists (Nazis; see National Socialism) and their allies, the German Nationalists

from the www.historychannel.com

He wasn't elected in an individual election. His party was voted into power, and him being the leader of the party, he was voted into power.

[CyberGnu]

So Israel should be allowed to kill palestinian civilians (ohh, it was a mistake, soo very sorry, I promise not to do it again in the next five minutes or so), but the palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves?

I think the division between civilian and military made sense 300 years ago, when wars were fought by mercenaries in uniform. Today there is no difference...

WW2 wasn't won by men in uniform. It was won by industrial capacity.

[Sirotnikov]

Cyber, you being a historian, want to bring some evidence proving undoubtable intention to kill, by the Israeli soldiers?

Something from the NYT or something.

[Sirotnikov]

Cyber is an excellent historian when it comes to writing baseless exaggeration.

He relies on the best sources of inexact media. Mostly himself.

[Arrian]

Cyber,

You're full of it.

The Israelis are not deliberately murdering civilians. If that was their intent, it would all be over pretty quickly. You like to allege that the deaths of Palestinian civilians were deliberate acts by Israel only because you think it justifies the suicide bombing.

I love how you demand proof of others, and then turn around and make baseless allegations when it suits you.

So Israel should be allowed to kill palestinian civilians (ohh, it was a mistake, soo very sorry, I promise not to do it again in the next five minutes or so), but the palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves?

WW2 wasn't won by men in uniform. It was won by industrial capacity.

Oh, I see, the suicide bombers are "defending" the Palestinians by blowing up factories, is that it? Well, I suppose a pizzaria is a factory that makes pizza...

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Here's my two cents:

Fist of all: I don't think suicide bombings are justifiable, especially not against civilians. In the same way, I don't think what happened in Dresden or Hiroshima were justified.

However, I support the end of the Palestinian actions, that is, to achieve liberation. Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is not justifiable by any moral standard. It is no more justifiable than the German occupation of Poland from 1939 to 1945.

Finally, I'm not trying to justify suicide bombings here, but has anyone even considered why suicide bombings are taking place? No, Palestinians aren't doing it for the heck of it. There is a root cause to it, one that consists mainly of pain, suffering, and oppression. And Israel probably shouldn't be contributing to this problem if they want any chance of achieving peace.

[CyberGnu]

Siro, you might want to read through my post a few times. Eventually you might even understand it.

In the meantime you should probably try to be a little more civil. Insulting someone for a point you misunderstood only reflects poorly on you.

I understand that you are frustrated and maybe a little shaken to learn that the media you have trusted as a kid turned out to lie habitually... But when you finally manage to wrap your mind around it you will be so much better off.

[CyberGnu]

Arrian:

The Israelis are not deliberately murdering civilians.

So far over 1500 civilians have died in the second uprising. The uprising is aginst the occupation. The occupation is deliberate.

Check the parallel US law: If someone dies while you commit a crime, you are guilty of murder, even if you didn't intentd to kill him. Same principle applies here.

I honestly don't understand where 'baseless allegations' comes in. What facts are you doubting? That israel is occupying palestine? That civilians have died? That Hiroshima was nuked?

Or was it what I responded to in my first paragraph? Well, that would make you an ass for insulting someone over something you didn't understand, wouldn't it?

[CyberGnu]

Oh, I see, the suicide bombers are "defending" the Palestinians by blowing up factories, is that it? Well, I suppose a pizzaria is a factory that makes pizza...

Industrial capacity is not only metals and machines. It's the people working them.

I'v never understood why when 10 people appoint an 11'th to fight in their stead it is supposedly moral to kill the 11'th, but not the first ten.

If it was in a dictarotship, I could understand it: The 11'th is forcing the first 10 to feed, clothe and support him. But Israel is a democracy. The people of Israel voted Sharon and his ilk into power. So the people of Israel are inherently MORE guilty than the civilians of Hiroshima.

[Arrian]

I honestly don't understand where 'baseless allegations' comes in. What facts are you doubting? That israel is occupying palestine? That civilians have died? That Hiroshima was nuked?

None of the above. I doubt that the civilians killed were killed intentionally. Yes, the occupation is intentional. Yes, it's also wrong. No, that does not justify the intentional targetting of civilians.

It is clear that you don't understand the distinction between military and civilian, and the reason it's important.

But Israel is a democracy. The people of Israel voted Sharon and his ilk into power. So the people of Israel are inherently MORE guilty than the civilians of Hiroshima.

So the policies of the US government which made the US a target for terrorism and culminated in 9/11 make us all legitimate targets, despite the fact that a "landslide" election victory usually means 60%/40% ?

The Israelis who voted against Sharon and have protested the occupation are targets just like the rest of their countrymen. So are the innocent children who had nothing to do with Israeli policy. Accordingly, your claim that citizens of a democracy are legitimate targets due to their voting rights is disingenuous. Many vote against the government that won, and the kids can't vote at all.

It's terrible when civilians are killed - whether they are Palestinian or Israeli. The difference that I see is that Palestinian extremists deliberately target Israeli citizens, whereas the IDF is trying to get at combatants and unfortunately end up killing civilians. It is not their intent to do so. You claim that it IS their intent. I don't buy it.

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Frankly, it's very hard to argue to Israeli soldiers are deliberately killing civilians.

In general, Israeli armed forces shoot only at armed militants, or people whom they think are armed militants, or buildings containing armed militants, or buildings thought to contain armed militants.

(What's the difference between armed militants and civilians? In occupied societies, there's often little difference.)

As for deliberate acts against civilians, only eviction, humiliation, and oppression is actually confirmable. Deliberate massacres of unarmed civilians are not. It's impossible to know whether it happened in Jenin or not.

Finally, it is arguable that Israel is responsible for infrastructure building in Palestinian territories. In addition, assimilated Arabs (i.e. Israeli Arabs) are generally accepted into mainstream Israeli society.

Thus, it's hard to compare the Israeli occupation of Palestine to Hitler or even Milosevic. Comparing it to, say, the American involvement in Vietnam, the British colonization of India, or the (initial) Chinese occupation of Tibet, is a lot closer to reality.

[Arrian]

Agreed, ranskaldan.

I have no intention of absolving Israel of all guilt for the occupation and its effects. Far from it. But that doesn't mean I will accept terrorism as a response.

It's funny, the very reasoning which terror apologists use to defend the targetting of civilians would, by extension, justify Israeli collective reprisals such as destroying civilian infrastructure (which I think is not only wrong, but also stupid).

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Israel's tactics in destroying "terrorist infrastructure" have been very bizarre so far.

It's almost as bizarre as America trying to topple Fidel Castro by sanctioning his country.

[Imran Siddiqui]

As for Sharon, he will go away in a flash like so many Israeli leaders before him.

Hopefully he won't go away in a flash .