American position on the PA

[Sirotnikov]

Intriguingly, I don't defend the practice of targeting children. I think it is criminal to bring children with you when you commit a crime.

You do defend the practice of targetting children.

I ask you again.

If you steal my house, and move in. Am I morally just to murder your children, until you move out?

But you, my friend, just admitted to defending the practice of using children as human shields.... Are you a settler at heart, Siro?

Never have I admitted that.

[CyberGnu]

You do defend the practice of targetting children.

I ask you again.

If you steal my house, and move in. Am I morally just to murder your children, until you move out?

I just did. Didn't you read my previous post?

[Sirotnikov]

Anyway, if my family insists on bringing food and ammo to me while I occupy my house, feel free to shoot them.

If they sit tight in their house and don't involve themselves in my crime, attacking them would be wrong. Just like attacking jews in Europe for Israels atrocities.

You are evading the actual question.

You and your family move in to my house, having expelled me.

Your wife and child do not assist you in the war effort. They simply live in the house.

I come and target your wife and child specifically, since I know that I am too weak to fight with you.

I kill your wife and child.

Was I morally just to do so, according to you?

Don't tell me it's your guilt or whatever. Tell me was it morally just for me, to come and slaughter your child and wife.

[Sirotnikov]

Intriguingly, I don't defend the practice of targeting children. I think it is criminal to bring children with you when you commit a crime.

Tell me this.

The palestinian combatants, know that they will be targetted by Israeli soldiers.

Is it moral for them to put up crowds of children infront of them, as they do, according to the BBC?

[Sirotnikov]

I just did. Didn't you read my previous post?

You are evading the actual question.

You and your family move in to my house, having expelled me.

Your wife and child do not assist you in the war effort. They simply live in the house.

I come and target your wife and child specifically, since I know that I am too weak to fight with you.

I kill your wife and child.

Was I morally just to do so, according to you?

Don't tell me it's your guilt or whatever. Tell me was it morally just for me, to come and slaughter your child and wife.

[CyberGnu]

Let me remind you of several incidents

1. A bomb is put next to school. Explodes 10 minutes before it the end of school, luckily.

2. A small bomb in a milk carton placed near a kindergarten (iirc)

3. Two israeli teens are murdered while taking a walk in the territories.

4. Several teens in a school in the territories, playing basketball are all gunned down.

5. Teen is lured over the internet to meet with a palestinian woman and then slaughtered

6. Suicide bomb at a disco for young (below 18) teens.

7. Suicide bomber approaches a bus stop in which only children are standing. Begins talking to them, gathering them around, explodes.

8. Suicide bombers which get on buses around 7, when children go to school, and over 50% of people on the bus are children.

9. Terrorist enters civilian house, guns down mother. guns down naked little girl which walks out of bathroom.

10. Terrorist enters school, guns down children in dorms.

11. Terrorist enters civilian house, shoots everyone in thier beds, including children.


I'm sure there have been lots of incidents I forgot.

Do you have sources for 1, 7 and 10?

2: Near? And source, please.

3 &4: Can you tell a teen from an adult on shooting distance?

5: That one is weird and twisted... Not defending that one.

6: First of: no one there was under 18? Second: Do you expect the Hamas to know the difference between a disco for 16-18 and 18-20?

8, 9 & 11: Seems pretty clear that the purpose was not to kill chlidren, just israelis in general. Again, Sharon carries the guilt for the death of these children.

[CyberGnu]

Aaaawwww

Little gnu is offended by expressions such as 'ass'.

Well, to yee of little knowledge of english:
"talk out of ones ass" = "speak bull****" = "talking without having the slightest idea or basis of his words"

And 'speak bull****' is not an insult?

It's a standard english expression. But I understand than english is a difficult language, and you being of the smart elite are probably not acquainted with slang.

Well, in light of your previous crap, you might want to look up the saying 'pot calling the kettle black'.

[CyberGnu]

1. I doubt that even a third of what I post here is intelligence.

So you could cut your posts with a third...

3. If an Israeli newspaper quotes a palestinian civilian or politician, you should trust it, unless you have an example of Israeli newspapers forging evidence.

Ahh, yes, trustworthy as an israeli politician. There are roughly six billion people on this earth I'd trust more...

But you know what? If you give the name of a palestinian as a source, I might take it at face value. AFAIK, not a single post you have made does that...

4. You claims about not being able to substatiate said quotes applies equally to NYT and so on. And I do no accept the claim that NYT is "well known" etc, since just a month ago I read about a journalist in some major american newspaper (NYT or WT or WP) fabricating articles out of his arse. I see no difference between the liability of NYT and Haaretz or Jerusalem Post.

Well, one minor difference: the NYT employs journalists who check things before they print them.

However, you are now minimizing your claims.

You have also claimed that Israeli newspapers bring quotes from arab speaking newspapers, which are obviously false, or misrepresented.

You must have an actual example of false quotes if you think so, or else, your opinion is unfounded and therefore I regard it as false.

Infact, I have also recently provided you with an Arabic -> English translator, which you could use to translate arabic newpapers and prove once and for all, that Israeli newspapers have a habbit of lying.


You can not automatically assume that the Israeli media is untrustworthy, just because you think so. You have to have some basis for it.

Other wise, you are infact inventing those claims, based on your prejudices.

Sigh. As if I had time to do that... I trust the NYT. I have no reason to do otherwise. When it was revealed that they jumped the gun on the alleged chinese spy in Los alamos, they dutifully printed apologies and rectifications.

I did follow jewsih media for one week, checking out the stories.

The vast majority had no sources whatsoever, apart from 'IDF sources' or 'Israeli radio'. This is no better than hearsay.

A few stories were true, as they appeared in western media as well.

And a few had sources, that upon further checking appeared to be untrue. The 'die welt' fabrications were the worst oif that batch, as it consisted of a plain face lie as a headline story...


So it is back in your court. If you want to prove anything, quote a real source.

[CyberGnu]

You are evading the actual question.

You and your family move in to my house, having expelled me.

Your wife and child do not assist you in the war effort. They simply live in the house.

I come and target your wife and child specifically, since I know that I am too weak to fight with you.

I kill your wife and child.

Was I morally just to do so, according to you?

Don't tell me it's your guilt or whatever. Tell me was it morally just for me, to come and slaughter your child and wife.

You can kill my wife. she made a decision to profit from a crime, and should be prepared to face the consequences. As I've said before, you can't deliberately kill the kid.

If the kid is killed by accident, however, the guilt falls squarely on my shoulders.

I'm amazed that you don't manage to draw these parallels on your own...

[CyberGnu]

Never have I admitted that.

I quote:
Gnu: Are you defending the practice of using children as human shields?

Siro: You are defending the practice of using children as targets. Who is worse?

This means you implicitly say 'yes' to my question.

Look, I know logic isn't your forte, so I won't rag on you for that. I'm assuming you didn't understand what you were saying.

Instead I'm going to ask my question once again:
Are you defending the practice of using children as human shields?

[Sirotnikov]

This means you implicitly say 'yes' to my question.

I never saw myself as the subject of your question.

Well, one minor difference: the NYT employs journalists who check things before they print them.

Are you defending the practice of using children as human shields?

No.

But I also don't consider that letting them live is "using them as shields"

[CyberGnu]

Tell me this.

The palestinian combatants, know that they will be targetted by Israeli soldiers.

Is it moral for them to put up crowds of children infront of them, as they do, according to the BBC?

According to the BBC, NYT and other news media, it is impossible to keep the kids away from confrontations with israeli soldiers...

Either way, while you could question the basic humanity of someone taking cover behind a child, the moral fault is still with the invading soldiers. If they don't open fire, no children will get hurt.

I'm fascinated that you still haven't managed to figure it out yet... the criminal is repsonsible for all damage caused by his actions. Israel is responsible for all suffering caused by its greed...

[GeneralTacticus]

You can kill my wife. she made a decision to profit from a crime, and should be prepared to face the consequences. As I've said before, you can't deliberately kill the kid.

If the kid is killed by accident, however, the guilt falls squarely on my shoulders.

Are you saying that the Palestinians kill teenagers 'by accident' when they blow themselves up in discos, restaurants etc?

[CyberGnu]

But I also don't consider that letting them live is "using them as shields"

Good. That takes care of your points 8, 9 and 11. There is no moral requirement to call off an attack because Israel has decided to put some kids there. Sharon is guilty of the deaths of these children.

[Sirotnikov]

According to the BBC, NYT and other news media, it is impossible to keep the kids away from confrontations with israeli soldiers...

I don't recall anyone stating it being impossible.

I do recall reports that the Palestinians haven't tried to preven it, but rather used TV to promote children going out the streets and confront Israeli soldiers.

Either way, while you could question the basic humanity of someone taking cover behind a child, the moral fault is still with the invading soldiers. If they don't open fire, no children will get hurt.

They open fire at those who fire at them.

If the soldiers accidentally hit the children, those who promoted their coming to the place are guilty - the PA which broadcasts calls for them to come.