Terract in Jenin!

[Sirotnikov]

ranskaldan - this is nonsense.

The 'palestinians' (syrians and arabs) did it to the original inhabitans of palestine.

The previous inhabitants did the same.

So did the previous to the previous.

So did the previous to the Jews.

So did the Jews to the previous.

So did the previous to the previous.

So did the previous to the Jews (which migrated to egypt).

So basically, it's a non stopable process and is natural.

[Sava]

ranskaldan, you are just as ignorant and bigoted as David, and your analogies are poorly thought out and blatantly false and exagerrated, maybe if your family gets killed in a supermarket by a suicide bomber, you will finally understand what it is like to have people who want you dead. I pray it doesn't happen to you, but its unfortunate that your tiresome blather will continue because nothing less than your family dying will probably change your views, and that's sad.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
ranskaldan - this is nonsense.

The 'palestinians' (syrians and arabs) did it to the original inhabitans of palestine.

The previous inhabitants did the same.

So did the previous to the previous.

So did the previous to the Jews.

So did the Jews to the previous.

So did the previous to the previous.

So did the previous to the Jews (which migrated to egypt).

So basically, it's a non stopable process and is natural.

So Siro, if in, lets say, 100 years the Arabs have the ability to destroy Israel and sweep it aside, you won't mind the fate of your decendents because, hey, invading and killing is natural? Actually, the only problem of the Palestinians is that they are not strong enough to destroy Israel yet, so what they shoul be doing is trying to come up with better weapons or better tactics to participate in this 'natural' game that's going on, isn't that right? And all the victims of suicide bombings are realy just victims of 'natural' death.....

And as for the previous issue of Aabs and democracy and Arafat:

To label a people unready for democracy is well, totally ignorant and bigotted. Russians had had no democratic past until 1991, and of course, this meant that they were all ignorant peasants unable to handle to notion of democracy, as opposed to the clean, corruption free, constitutionally written Israeli government....Poor Israel that so mny of these undemocratic peons had to flood it after '91!! Arab states have not had stable democracy yet, but of course neaither have most 3rd worl states. If the Aab world has stayed behind is because the current structures, buil upon Oil or superpower interests, have given Aab states the ability to forstall change, but it will be coming soon.

More importantly, I don't think your post answered by issue. I agree that Arafat crushed democracy in the Occupied territories after cuttin his little deal at Oslo. My question was why israel, with its 20+years of complete rule in the occupied territories did not build any long lasting institutions? You say tht its thanks to Israel that the Palestinians have such a standard of living, well, would the Palestinians, with their own state, have had a lower one? And even with israeli rule, why did their standard lag so far behind those of Israeli Arabs, and why do the standads of Israeli arabs lag behind those of Jews? Arafat has had a decade and did little if anything, but israel had 26 years, and what did you do, besides provide for the Palestinians a level of life bellow many of those set by the UN? Should we, the international community give Israel some kid of prize for its Horrible neglicenge, mismanegement, and patent abuses, both of human rights, and of international norms?

This is not writen to exhonorate Arafat, who has done nothing for the palestinian people, but Israel can't pin on Arafat its own gross actions. Arafat is guilty of what he's done, but all his crime can't and won't exhonorate israel for it's. Thats just the way responsibility, yes, that little thing called responsbility, works.

[CyberGnu]

Sava, what you are saying is that if I commit a crime and my girlfriend is killed by the police because of my actions, I should blame and hate the cops? Shouldn't I try to reflect on the culpability of my actions, atone for my crimes, even work to prevent others from doing the same thing?

That would of course be the moral thing to do... Not exactly Israels forte.

[CyberGnu]

GePap, haven't you learned yet?

an Israeli apologizer can answer any question with:

A) The palestinians do it too
B) Arafat can't be trusted
C) Native americans live in reservations
D) You are an anti-semite.

Usually A, B & C are exhausted before D pops up. Sava got exhausted quickly, however.

[Sirotnikov]

Gnu - so you suggest that if you commit a crime, and the police come to arrest you, can't find you, and then decide to execute your girlfriend, it your fault, and the police did what it should?

because if we take what you mean in the example, the police being the palestinians, and the girlfriend being Israeli civilian casulaties, then the reality is that the police targetted and executed your girlfriend and not you.

Is that acceptable?

GeGap - sure I would mind, but it's still something which humans do.

I would prefer to live in peace, but I imagine it won't happen for the next decade, and then won't hold for more than two decades.

I also don't think Israel was created with the intention to sweep aside any political or national entity here, because practically, there was none.

The palestinians at the time were mostly an ethnical entity, which I'm saying again for the tenth time.

This is based on opinion polls and articles both before and after Israel's creation, where most local palestinians saw them selves as Syrians or generally Arabs.

As for russia - it's not exactly ready for democracy yet, and it's in reality a puppet democracy in the hands of previous KGB officer Putin. I bet you don't watch russian TV or read russian newspapers as much as I do, or my family does.

Russia is very much a developing democracy. And yet, it had a decade of democratic developement even before the revolution, under Glasnost and the Reforms period.

And in any case - the communist revolution was a step up from the medieval feudal russia of 1917.

Now, the arab society in 1948 palestine was sadly in the same levels of political developement as 1917 russia.

In Israel, the arab society grew to be very democratic, and it's political effect is growing by the day.

In the territories it grew much slower, because the territories were occupied by Israel only in 1967, and were constantly under military law.

But still, democracy did rise, in the sense that stable city based infrastructure and city based political power grew.

However, that power was often diminshed by Arafat's own central authority, established in 1993.

The central institution of the Palestinians is very much undemocratical, while the city based authorities are better.

[Dr Strangelove]

Oh well. my two cwnts worth:
(1) There were Jews living in the area even before the Zionist movement. The early Zionists immigrated with the permission of the Ottoman goverment.
(2) There never would have been such a flood of post-war Jewish immigration if certain members of the EU hadn't so viciously persecuted them.
(3) The so - called friends of the Palestinians certainly didn't give peace much of a chance - they attacked Israel within hours of formal independence.

[Sirotnikov]

(4) The so called Palestinians didn't give peace a chance and attacked and murdered Jews ever since 1920.

[Sirotnikov]

Filling in for Panag

hi

you must joke you see..... israel was and will be.....

palesstinians want democracy but current govt.... you know... cybergnu can tell...

we sneak in new secret you see ..... siro go to rounding point Aleph 2 9 Duvdevan 5 1 1

have a good day

[ranskaldan]

Whoa, now everyone's attacking me for some reason.

(oh yes, if you can't come up with any better points other than calling me "ignorant" and "exaggerating", I suggest that you seriously re-examine your own viewpoints on the ME.)

To put it in short and simple form, yes I know terrorism is bad and that it is evil to kill innocent people, anyone with a remotest sense of morality knows that, but it is equally evil to enter, occupy, and stay, permanently. Not a million heinous Palestinian terrorist attacks will, strategically or morally, justify the equally heinous occupation of Palestinian lands by the State of Israel.

edit:
Siro:
thanks for not losing your cool, unlike some here.
As for your point about people replacing each other, and it being natural, I don't think that just because it is somehow "natural", it should be continued or encouraged.

[cia]

Here's the REAL problem in the Middle East:
NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO LOSE!
They fight a war, get their butts kicked, then instead of giving up go off and sulk and come back later for round 2.
The Palestinians backed the wrong horse, lost, and have to get over it. Occupied my butt. Just because a bunch on dictatorial powers in the UN say so doesn't make it fact. Same garbage happened in the Iran-Iraq war and the same with Afganistan. Guess genocide in war has to make a comeback before these people will get it through their heads.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Oh well. my two cwnts worth:
(1) There were Jews living in the area even before the Zionist movement. The early Zionists immigrated with the permission of the Ottoman goverment.
(2) There never would have been such a flood of post-war Jewish immigration if certain members of the EU hadn't so viciously persecuted them.
(3) The so - called friends of the Palestinians certainly didn't give peace much of a chance - they attacked Israel within hours of formal independence.

1) like about 10%?

2) point being?

3) What do you think would have happened, if instead of all going to Palestine, the Jewish refugees entered and occupied the City of New York?

[cia]

If New York had any religious significance they probably would have tried ranskaldan. And in the US no one would have noticed.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

When they approached a group carrying out a mission of house to house search, a tank opened fire aimed near them, to scare them away, and possibly some troops opened fire as well.

You cannot be serious !! You cannot fire a shell just to scare away pedestrians ?

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
GePap, haven't you learned yet?

an Israeli apologizer can answer any question with:

A) The palestinians do it too
B) Arafat can't be trusted
C) Native americans live in reservations
D) You are an anti-semite.

Usually A, B & C are exhausted before D pops up. Sava got exhausted quickly, however.

hi ,

it seems that you are exhausted also , ....

, its because all the work you are doing , in order to come and see for yourself , ...........




have a nice day