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  • Originally posted by Asher

    The current system is an unfair distribution of representation. Canada is huge and diverse, and you still seem to think it's okay that if 1001 of the people want to do something, and 1000 people don't, then it's still fine because the majority has ruled.

    You make no sence, that is what rule of the majority is. So your saying if 900 people want to something and 300 don't then you can't do it? maybe 900 vs 30? So what exactly are you saying, that you can't do something unless 100% agree?
    Join the army, travel to foreign countries, meet exotic people -
    and kill them!

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    • Originally posted by Ramo
      Err... no. IOW, the minority ends up trampling on the "rights" (assigning rights to political parties/divisions is silly) of the majority.
      How so? Give me an example.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

      Comment


      • Originally posted by markusf
        You make no sence, that is what rule of the majority is. So your saying if 900 people want to something and 300 don't then you can't do it? maybe 900 vs 30? So what exactly are you saying, that you can't do something unless 100% agree?
        Go away blackice.
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Boris Godunov
          There has never been a government, ever, that has served the will of every one of its citizens, nor will there ever be. This is because, realistically, there will be completely contradictory ideaology among many citizens.

          The best any government can hope to do is to serve the will of as many people as it can while adhering to constitutional protection of all citizens.
          The problem is some people's brains can't fathom the possibility of large minority groups seeking representation as well.

          They prefer to dumb everything down to simple "50.00000000000000001% want this, so we shall do it" type approaches. There needs to be a system that allows for the large minority groups to have a say in politics as well. This is their country also, who cares if they're not the complete majority? They don't MAKE bills, but they can still have their (overrepresented in one branch) say in a bill if they strongly disagree with it.
          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

          Comment


          • No, you go away.

            Markus sees the eventual results of your line of reasoning, and you're either deliberately or accidentally missing them.

            The Constitution guarantees fundamental individual rights. The rest is up to the electorate of 50%+1.
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

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            • Originally posted by Asher

              Go away blackice.
              I am not a DL. Now are you going to answer the question? How many people have to vote no before your not allowed to do something?
              Join the army, travel to foreign countries, meet exotic people -
              and kill them!

              Comment


              • There needs to be a system that allows for the large minority groups to have a say in politics as well


                There already is. That's the beauty of representational democracy; you don't vote on every single issue, so the value you place on an issue has a role to play in who you vote for.
                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                Killing it is the new killing it
                Ultima Ratio Regum

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Asher
                  There needs to be a system that allows for the large minority groups to have a say in politics as well. This is their country also, who cares if they're not the complete majority? They don't MAKE bills, but they can still have their (overrepresented in one branch) say in a bill if they strongly disagree with it.
                  We tend to call those lobby groups, and they are catered to far more then the so called majority.
                  Join the army, travel to foreign countries, meet exotic people -
                  and kill them!

                  Comment


                  • And once again, the U.S. Senate can and does make bills, so what you're in favor of is not a U.S.-style Senate.
                    Tutto nel mondo è burla

                    Comment


                    • Asher is living in a dreamworld if he thinks Alberta's interests will be protected by a US-style senate. His theory is severely flawed

                      Alberta won't get a bigger voice
                      Just look at the numbers. Under a US-style system, Alberta would only have 10 per cent of the seats while Eastern Canada would have 60 per cent. A US-style senate would make it easier for Eastern Canada to dominate the government.

                      A US-style senate won't protect Alberta's interests
                      With only 10 per cent of the senate seats, Alberta would not be able to block bills that hurt it.

                      The system isn't to blame for the Liberal's power
                      Asher blames the parliamentary system for the Liberal's dominance in government. This is untrue. The Liberals dominate federal politics because the right-wing is divided. When the right-wing is united, the conservatives have formed the government.

                      US-style system leads to passing the buck
                      As Boris said, under the parliamentary system, the electors know who to blame and who to praise. When the Liberals created the NEP, they were kicked out of office in the next election. The PCs were kicked out of office after Mulroney screwed things up.

                      The Senate system allows politicians to blame each other for problems they have created.

                      US-style system leads to deadlock
                      Usually, if the Republicans control the senate then voters elect the Democracts to control the house. So you end up with a perpetual deadlock.

                      US-senate gives too much power to the minority
                      Under the US system, individual politicians gain too much power. The only way to get a bill passed is to hand out goodies to individual politicians. (politican A will support farm subsidies if politician B supports corporate welfare) The result is inefficient.

                      A democratic system is based on majority rules
                      Asher doesn't like this system because his far right-wing voice doesn't get heard. But why should his minority opinion be forced upon the majority?

                      The Canadian senate is useless, but that does not justify creating an American-style senate.
                      Golfing since 67

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                      • Ah, tingkai. I agree wholeheartedly with each and every one of those points.
                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment


                        • How so? Give me an example.
                          Sure.
                          Can't think of a recent example at the moment, but consider, for example, the Compromise of 1850. The Compromise arose over the fate of the Western territories annexed from Mexico. The majority of people and the House and President supported making the territories free states. But the Senate didn't like it, so they forced the majority to accept the Fugitive Slave Act, a law that forced Northern states to return escaped slaves to their owners, and have the fate of slavery in the territories excluding California be determined by their populations.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

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                          • Originally posted by Tingkai
                            Alberta won't get a bigger voice
                            Just look at the numbers. Under a US-style system, Alberta would only have 10 per cent of the seats while Eastern Canada would have 60 per cent. A US-style senate would make it easier for Eastern Canada to dominate the government.

                            A US-style senate won't protect Alberta's interests
                            With only 10 per cent of the senate seats, Alberta would not be able to block bills that hurt it.
                            Hey, Tingkai. Perhaps you should read sometimes.

                            I said the Senate would give the Liberals a minority in the Senate, I've said nothing specifically about getting Alberta more power.

                            The system isn't to blame for the Liberal's power
                            Asher blames the parliamentary system for the Liberal's dominance in government. This is untrue. The Liberals dominate federal politics because the right-wing is divided. When the right-wing is united, the conservatives have formed the government.
                            I don't care for the reasoning behind WHY the majority exists.

                            All I know, and have been talking about, is that the majority government has unlimited power in Canada. And that's outrageous.

                            US-style system leads to passing the buck
                            As Boris said, under the parliamentary system, the electors know who to blame and who to praise. When the Liberals created the NEP, they were kicked out of office in the next election. The PCs were kicked out of office after Mulroney screwed things up.
                            You can't blame unless you vote for parties only? Are you that stupid, Tingkai?

                            US-style system leads to deadlock
                            Usually, if the Republicans control the senate then voters elect the Democracts to control the house. So you end up with a perpetual deadlock.
                            Strangely the US has more productive stuff going on than Canada. How long did it take us to make the anti-terror legislation again?

                            US-senate gives too much power to the minority
                            Under the US system, individual politicians gain too much power. The only way to get a bill passed is to hand out goodies to individual politicians. (politican A will support farm subsidies if politician B supports corporate welfare) The result is inefficient.
                            "Too much power" is relative. If you're in the majority, then it's too much. If you're in the minority, it's not enough. Strike a balance.

                            A democratic system is based on majority rules
                            Asher doesn't like this system because his far right-wing voice doesn't get heard. But why should his minority opinion be forced upon the majority?
                            Why should your opinion be forced on mine? Because you outnumber me?
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Boris Godunov
                              And once again, the U.S. Senate can and does make bills, so what you're in favor of is not a U.S.-style Senate.
                              Okay, US style senate without bill making ability. I was assuming that part of Canada's system would remain fixed.
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by markusf
                                You make no sence, that is what rule of the majority is. So your saying if 900 people want to something and 300 don't then you can't do it? maybe 900 vs 30? So what exactly are you saying, that you can't do something unless 100% agree?
                                There must a reason that the 300 people don't want to do it. And would those reasons be?

                                Perhaps it's something that acts in the benefit of the 900 people at the expense of the 300?

                                That's the whole idea of the system.
                                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                                Comment

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