Had an interesting conversation last night...

[morb]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Call them names fine, but don't use racial epithets, unless you're a comedian of the target group.

so why don't we start erasing words. that'll work. we can just use terms like "double plus good" instead of "fan-facking-tastic" because the latter might offend someone.

oh, and since we're on the subject, if i can't call someone a pollak, nobody dare call me a RED or I will EDIT: probably do nothing.

[orange]

red? are you a communist?

[orange]

oh, and morb, might want to rethink the "...or I will kill you" bit. I've seen bans and PCRs for less threatening things than that...

[morb]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Orange:

A black person could not know your intent, and based upon past history, they would be perfectly justified in assuming your intention was malicious.

oh that's funny. so you're saying that "based upon past history" I would be perfectly justified in believing that all arabs/muslums wish to do me harm (which is not true of me personally anyway).

way to double back on your argument champ.

[orange]

very good analogy, morb!

[morb]

Originally posted by orange
oh, and morb, might want to rethink the "...or I will kill you" bit. I've seen bans and PCRs for less threatening things than that...

fine, i won't kill you. I will just get all the russians on the board to dump on you.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by morb

oh that's funny. so you're saying that "based upon past history" I would be perfectly justified in believing that all arabs/muslums wish to do me harm (which is not true of me personally anyway).

way to double back on your argument champ.

If an arab approached you using a racial slur, like say, "red," you'd have every right to be offended and angered.

I wasn't saying blacks should mistrust all whites based on the past. I was saying that if a white person addresses a black person with the epithet "******," why shouldn't the black person be offended?

Do you have a clue what we're discussing here?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
very good analogy, morb!

No, it was quite flawed, as I pointed out.

[orange]

no, i still like it. why should someone assume bad things about someone else simply because of their race? Forget "******" how about "nigga" since we want to get all up on semantics here...

if I say to a black person "hey my nigga" why should he be perfectly justified in assuming that my intention is malicious?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
no, i still like it. why should someone assume bad things about someone else simply because of their race? Forget "******" how about "nigga" since we want to get all up on semantics here...

if I say to a black person "hey my nigga" why should he be perfectly justified in assuming that my intention is malicious?

If he doesn't know you, and knowing that white people still use "******" as a racist epithet, why shouldn't he assume your intent is malicious? At the very least, he would assume that mr. suburban white guy is making fun of the urban black dialect.

You're looking at this from a white worldview. One of the keys to diversity, which you so admire, is learning to see things from the perspective of others.

And again, to draw to something I'm more familiar with, people still bash gays these days, murder them even, and call them ******s viciously (See Fred "God Hates Fags" Phelps). If I didn't know you and you came up to me and addressed me as "******," you'd better believe my gut reaction would be you're a homophobic basher and I'd get the hell away from you.

But if a friend walks up to me in a bar and says "what's up, ******?", why on earth should I be offended? Especially since by using that word in that connotation, it actually helps make it a little less painful.

From a heterosexual perspective, that is going to be hard to understand, because you haven't had to cope with the painful isolation and self-worth issues associated with being a homosexual in society that treats gays as second-class citizens.

The same applies, IMO, for blacks, who still are treated, by and large, as less-than-full-Americans, whether consciously or subconsciously.

[morb]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


If an arab approached you using a racial slur, like say, "red," you'd have every right to be offended and angered.

I wasn't saying blacks should mistrust all whites based on the past. I was saying that if a white person addresses a black person with the epithet "******," why shouldn't the black person be offended?

Do you have a clue what we're discussing here?

the core of your argument was that a black person is naturally going to be justified in being mistrusting and suspicious of a white guy "based on history." Assuming that the white guy (he'd have to be pretty damn big if we're talking about the real world here) is automatically going to wish the black guy ill by saying "my nigga" or whatever is analogous to me justified in being suspicious of an arab at an airport "based on past history." just because the arab doesn't say anything, the analogy is not flawed, because the "history" is different. get it?

[orange]

If he doesn't know you, and knowing that white people still use "******" as a racist epithet, why shouldn't he assume your intent is malicious? At the very least, he would assume that mr. suburban white guy is making fun of the urban black dialect.

I could be from the city, and have plenty of black friends, and use the term in the same way that you claim it's used in a positive way by members of that race.

Similarly, I can't see why on earth someone would say "Hey ******" to a gay friend even if they were gay...can't they pick ANY other word to express friendship?? Why a word that has caused so much harm in the past, and continues to cause harm in the present!?!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by morb
the core of your argument was that a black person is naturally going to be justified in being mistrusting and suspicious of a white guy "based on history." Assuming that the white guy (he'd have to be pretty damn big if we're talking about the real world here) is automatically going to wish the black guy ill by saying "my nigga" or whatever is analogous to me justified in being suspicious of an arab at an airport "based on past history." just because the arab doesn't say anything, the analogy is not flawed, because the "history" is different. get it?

Why you are being so confrontational about this is bewildering. You came into this discussion with a bad attitude, whereas we were all discussing it in a rational, friendly manner before. I suggest you leave until you can discuss things without being insulting to people who have different opinions.

I don't think there's anyone here who will, being honest, say that when they are in airport and see a man of middle eastern descent, they don't get in the back of their mind a little twinge of suspicion. Human nature, and given recent events, totally understandable.

That doesn't give one the right to treat that person badly or illegally, but I don't think anyone could help but get a little nervous. That's not bad, as it might make someone more alert.

This is, of course, veering to irrelevancy for the issue of racial slurs.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
I could be from the city, and have plenty of black friends, and use the term in the same way that you claim it's used in a positive way by members of that race.

You could be Jesus Christ walking the earth, but if a black kid has only seen white people saying "******" as a racial slur, what else is he supposed to think?

How you can't see the difference is bewildering.

Similarly, I can't see why on earth someone would say "Hey ******" to a gay friend even if they were gay...can't they pick ANY other word to express friendship?? Why a word that has caused so much harm in the past, and continues to cause harm in the present!?!

I went over this several times. It's diffusing the word through a humorous usage among those its meant to hurt. What better way to reduce the harm a word can cause to your psyche than to twist into something promoting solidarity with similar people and defiance of the very word itself?

Banning the words only give them more potency to hurt.

[morb]

wait a minute. my first post was not addressed to you at all and should not concern you at all. secondly, I think I've been pretty rational concidering you were trying to suggest I hadn't a clue what the convo was about in the first place.

are you trying to tell me that i can't play in this sandbox just because I've disagreed with you and backed up my point and you don't seem to have a decent counter argument? who's being irrational?