Had an interesting conversation last night...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


What frickin' sense does that make?

If you commit murder, you're a murderer.

If you rob someone, you're a thief.

If you spout racist crap, you're a racist.

If you say things like "Hooray for AIDS..."

Boris, why try to argue with somone like Sava?

[Sava]

1. Soldiers in WW2 killed in defeating the Nazis, are they murderers?

2. If a man steals a loaf a bread to feed his family is he a thief.

3. If your family gets murdered by terrorists and you utter a racist statement in anger, are you a racist?

4. It was a joke, and I apologize, get over it.

[red_jon]

Racsim gets me just as angry as homophobia, IRL.

[MrFun]

Sava, I do not care if a person is a victim of a terrorist attack -- if they start attributing terrorist ideology to an entire ethnic or religious group, then that person is being bigoted.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sava
1. Soldiers in WW2 killed in defeating the Nazis, are they murderers?

I can't think of anyone (rational) who considers killing enemy soldiers in combat to be murder. It isn't.

2. If a man steals a loaf a bread to feed his family is he a thief.

Yes. That doesn't mean he's evil, just a thief, as he has committed theft.

3. If your family gets murdered by terrorists and you utter a racist statement in anger, are you a racist?

Perhaps or perhaps not, but the situation orange described is not even similar. This guy had no family killed and it is months later. Plenty of time to let such "errant" feelings cool down.

4. It was a joke, and I apologize, get over it.

I've seen no apology accept this lame attempt above (coupled with a dismissive comment). How about next time, I joke about a horrible way someone you cared about died, and then casually tell you to get over it?

[Sava]

Perhaps you should read the other thread. Sometimes, in making jokes, people get offended. It was not my intent to offend, and I'm sorry that you had a friend that died. I made a mistake, I apologized, and if you can't accept it, then too bad. People make mistakes. I try to respect other people and their beliefs, every once in a while I put my foot in my mouth. Sh!t happens...

[Guynemer]

Boris is right, Orange. Your friend is a racist, no matter how much he professes the contrary.

[red_jon]

Yeah but it's hard to confront a friend over racism. And I should know.

[Monk]

Sava, I do not care if a person is a victim of a terrorist attack -- if they start attributing terrorist ideology to an entire ethnic or religious group, then that person is being bigoted.

I agree in theory, but do remember that if you're a member of the religious group "orthodox Muslims", you're pretty likely to support jihad in some way or another.

[Sava]

There are sects of Christianity that are racist; the KKK is one example. They practive their own form of religion. So if I say I hate the KKK am I being bigoted? What about Nazis. Although mostly political, Nazism was supported by the majority of Germany pre-WW2.

I don't like certain forms Islam, but I don't generalize all Muslims as bad, evil or terrorists.

[Guynemer]

Wonderful, Sava. That relates to this situation how, exactly?

The jackoff is a racist, period. Saying the "towelheads" or the "sand ******s" will get you is unbelievably patently racist, and it doesn't bode well for your character that you can't recognize it as such. Indeed, it's been a rather bad day for your alleged character.

[orange]

wow, well we definitely need to clear some things up...

Orange, what does it take for you to consider someone racist? This guys saying racist stuff, is spouting racist beliefs, trying to get someone to act on his racist beliefs. Is anyone racist to you?

He is saying racist stuff. What I'm saying is, I believe him in the fact that he doesn't judge people on their race...I don't believe that he thinks that all Arabs/Muslims are evil, and I don't think he feels that the white race is the greatest race. Infact, he even made a comment along the lines of "I know that whites are the worst race as far as prejudice about other races, and I think it's wrong, so I don't judge people on that"

I think he was just making a broad comment based on limited facts without clearly thinking it out, nor did he realize the severity of the names he was using to describe a group of people. Ignorance moreso than racism.

Speak for all of them... if you said that to a Pakistani, chances are they'd never speak to you again.

I added that part in for comic relief, it worked, everyone laughed

BET and African-American Student Groups are racist, but a guy who says "sandn*gger" isn't?

Ignorance is different than racism. Like I said, I don't feel that he specifically targets groups of people as being deviant, nor does he judge people on their race. What I was saying about Black Student Unions and BET as being racist is that they segregate. I don't necessarily think that they feel black culture is the best culture...nor do I feel that those who are involved in these groups are racist...i'm talking about those things as a concept.

If you'll all stop and realize something, I was QUITE vocal about my feelings that what he said was wrong. I called him on it on the spot, and made sure he understood that what he was saying was unacceptable and ignorant. I think he got the message, partially from the tone of my voice, and partially from the peer pressure of 2 other people backing me up.

Most importantly: this person is not my 'friend'. I barely know him. We've hung out twice. He is a friend of a friend.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Wonderful, Sava. That relates to this situation how, exactly?

The jackoff is a racist, period. Saying the "towelheads" or the "sand ******s" will get you is unbelievably patently racist, and it doesn't bode well for your character that you can't recognize it as such. Indeed, it's been a rather bad day for your alleged character.

That's the whole point sweetheart. Listen Miss, I'm not going to put a judgement on some guy that some guy knows that some guys knows.... without actually meeting this person. I'm also not going to worry about how you or anyone else perceives my character. I know who I am, and I'm not going to cry over some little girl's interpretation of a few troll posts that I make.

[chequita guevara]

No, Orange, I see that you called him on it, as you should have. But you want to make an exception for ignorance. Racism is largely a result of ignornace. It is one of the pillarsof racism. I'm glad you called the guy on it, and tried to make him think about it. But what he said was racist, and those were obviously the feelings he had. Maybe he hadn't thought things through clearly, maybe he backpedled when he realized he was with a group of people that wouldn't tollerate the ****. I can't say. But it was still racist.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sava
Perhaps you should read the other thread. Sometimes, in making jokes, people get offended. It was not my intent to offend, and I'm sorry that you had a friend that died. I made a mistake, I apologized, and if you can't accept it, then too bad. People make mistakes. I try to respect other people and their beliefs, every once in a while I put my foot in my mouth. Sh!t happens...

Yes, you're so sorry:

Careful Ron... I made a crack about AiDS and got reamed....

Quite remorseful.

Look, I have no problem accepting apologies for mistakes, if they're genuine. But you've shown you weren't sincere in the apology and think you've been wronged for people pointing out what a horrible thing you said:

An ill-timed joke can offend an awful lot of
people...

Yup... and its a shame too. Life is too short to hate someone for such a stupid reason. Oh well, if they're going to hate me for that, then they aren't worth liking anyways.

No one's hating you for making a joke. But what rankles me even more than the joke is the callous dismissal of people's feelings over it. That just shows you're not the least bit sincere in being sorry for what you said, only sorry that people got mad over it. That's not an apology, that's just a further insult.

I did not think one bad thing about you prior to this, but I have to say that it has really lowered my opinion of you to Boddingtonesque levels.