Kissinger to be extradited?

[Jack the Bodiless]

I am almost certain that Kissinger was not responsible for the caste system in India.

However, I would not be surprised.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I'm surprised on one caught me on Berlin,

I forgot about the Berlin blockade.

Hungary, and Czechoslovakia.

What did they do there?

Man, my brain is fading. Soon I'm gonna be like a leftie version of Faded Glory.

Edit: BTW, since we are talking about Soviet war crimes I fell safe in asking this. I was watching the movie Enigma a few weeks ago and they mentioned a Soviet massacre of Polish officers. Can anyone tell me if such an event did take place? Also if they are able to give me some info about the action I would be appreciative.

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
I am almost certain that Kissinger was not responsible for the caste system in India.

However, I would not be surprised.

Look at it this way: What did he do to end it?

[Felch]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


the USSR undertook no offensive actions

I never cease to be amazed at how he holds the USSR to such a different standard as the US. Chile undertook no offensive action, but Pinochet's persecution of political opponents is still terrible. The same could be said of the Soviet Union.

Face it, in every major engagement between the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War, they were both aggressors. They both sought to bring greater territory and populations under their respective influences. The only reason the USSR seems to be defending all the time was because the United States was generally successful in its campaigns.

But for argument's sake, let's take a look at aggresive action by the Soviet Union and its allies:

• Soviet invasion of Afganistan, which you already mentioned
• North Korean invasion of South Korea
• North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam
• The Angolan Civil War
• Mao's takeover of the Republic of China
• Khmer Rouge's takeover of Cambodia
• Pathet Lao's takeover of Laos.

If anybody would like to add to this list, feel free. It is very far from complete.

And Che, offensive actions are any actions where territory that is not currently under your possesion is attacked. The Normandy invasion was an offensive action, as was, oh wait another one, the Soviet Union's push into Eastern Europe at the end of the Second World War. That is to say, I don't care if you think the Soviet campaigns were legitimate or not. I view the American invasion of Afganistan to be legitmate, just as I view the D-Day landing to have been legitimate. They were still both offensive.

Back to my original point however, many of the greatest crimes committed by the Soviet Union were committed against its own people. They are very well documented, and I encourage you to examine The Black Book of Communism if you think I'm just making them up. Pinochet's crimes happened, Kissinger committed crimes, you need to own up to the fact that the Soviets did the same thing, and we should push for justice against them at least as hard as we do for Kissinger and Pinochet. Kissinger and Pinochet were on the winning side, and haven't committed any terrible atrocities for years. Could we reasonably expect the same of the Soviet Union and its allies if they had been victorious?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Hungary, and Czechoslovakia.

What did they do there?

Hungary '56 and Prague Spring ring any bells?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Felch X
[*]Soviet invasion of Afganistan, which you already mentioned
[*]North Korean invasion of South Korea

The DPRK is not the USSR. While the Soviets certainly supplied the DPRK and Soviets piloted DPRK MiGs, the actions of the DPRK can't really be placed at the foot of any living Soviet cold warrior. This comes closest, since the DPRK and the USSR were tight. But Stalin and his henchmen are all long in the ground. You'll have a very diffiult time prosecuting anyone for this unless you like prosecuting corpses.

[*]North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam

South Vietnam wasn't a legitmate country. It's people had voted for union with the North in 1956. In any event, the USSR didn't control them. Not a Soviet war crime.

[*]The Angolan Civil War

Mmmm, taking the side of the legitimate government against a proxy army of hired thugs and a South African invasion. That's soooo bad. Not a Soviet war crime.

[*]Mao's takeover of the Republic of China

I fail to see how Stalin's continually trying to stop Mao's fight helps your point. Not a Soviet War crime.

[*]Khmer Rouge's takeover of Cambodia

The Khmer Rouge had no allies except fot the Red Chese, who were enemies of the USSR at that point. Not a Soviet war crime.

[*]Pathet Lao's takeover of Laos.

An indigenous movement overthrows a dictatorial government forced upon them from without, and this should be considered a Soviet war crime?

And Che, offensive actions are any actions where territory that is not currently under your possesion is attacked.

My bad, let me rephrase to legitimate offensives. Only a fool would argue that the USSR should merely have driven the Nazi's back to the Soviet border.

They are very well documented, and I encourage you to examine The Black Book of Communism if you think I'm just making them up.

The Black Book of Communism is a poorly documented excuse for propaganda. It is enterirely overblown, and even if it were true, it still doesn't come close to the bloody swath that Capitalism has left since its inception.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Communism has left many more dead than capitalism has. The only way commies can say capitalism has more dead is when they try to put mercantalism into capitalism .

[chequita guevara]

Mercantilism was capitalism.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Mercantilism was capitalism.

No, it wasn't.

PS Could you comment on my earlier edit?

[Imran Siddiqui]

And che doesn't dissapoint .

It is one of the reasons I can't take communists seriously. Calling mercantalism, capitalism shows ignorance of both systems.

[chequita guevara]

Sorry, DD, yes, it did take place. Stalin had the officers of the Polish army rounded up and shot in the Katyin (sp?) forest (1939-40ish). About 10,000 of them, IIRC. Definately a war crime and a crime against humanity, however one may have felt about the Polish regime. But, considering all of the other horrible stuff Stalin did, a drop in the bucket, really.

They recently found the mass grave.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Calling mercantalism, capitalism shows ignorance of both systems.

The only way you can consider them two seperate systems is if you narrowly construe capitalism to be an idea which came out of Adam Smith's head. Most of the key features of capitalism exist in mercantilism: commodity production, the law of value, the transformation of capital into money into capital (with a surplus) C-> M -> C'. You have the beginings of the factory method of production, breaking trades down into their simpler tasks so that unskilled labor can perform them.

But just as there are differences between a child and an adult, there are differences between mercantilism and fully developed capitalism. You would be foolish to calim that a child was not human because he lacks the full characteristics of an adult, and are you similarly foolish if you believe the same for mercantilism and capitalism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But just as there are differences between a child and an adult, there are differences between mercantilism and fully developed capitalism. You would be foolish to calim that a child was not human because he lacks the full characteristics of an adult, and are you similarly foolish if you believe the same for mercantilism and capitalism.

Then if socialism comes about peacefully, I can say that socialism IS capitalism . Your logic if flawed. By using it, you can say everything that exists today that used some tradition of the past IS what the past ideal was. This is simply wrong. Einsteinian physics isn't Newtonian physics, even though it grew from that.

Mercantalism is not capitalism. Capitalism may have used the building blocks that were there from mercantalism but introduced a vastly new system. Mercantalism was interested in colonies which would horde gold in the home country. In Capitalism, this is foolish. It leads to inflation of the worst kind (which one of the reasons the Spanish empire fell). In Capitalism, you must end this colonial experiment and allow the states of the world to engage in competitive trade utilizing comparative advantage. Mercantalism is a state-based system.. Capitalism is the first truly international economic system devised.

I expect you, che, if socialism ever comes about through election to decry it because it is simply capitalism and mercantalism, just the adult of the child .

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Then if socialism comes about peacefully, I can say that socialism IS capitalism

If that's all it takes to get you to support socialism.

[Az]

"Actually, Ghandi was very concerned with the civil rights of the untouchables. One of his goals was the overthrow of the caste system."

you sure about that , Che? I thought that Ghandi was a traditionalist , and was at odds with people that were leading a "westernist" movement in India. The caste system is a very strong representative of Indian culture.