Desecration of the Church of Nativity

[Natan]

The Israelis didn't storm the church because they were paying lip service to the right of sanctuary on holy ground...

Has this right ever applied to armed men? Isn't the general custom to leave your weapons at the door? And does any country allow people wanted for crimes to stay in a Church based on this "right of sanctuary?"

[Bereta_Eder]

yes.

the church/temple asylum. it is respected.


the priests cannot turn out anyone.

they have a moral obligation though to make him see what he's done, repent and turn himself in

[MOBIUS]

Talk about clutching at straws...

One priest complained the foreigners had desecrated the church by smoking and drinking alcohol.

As Krazy says, the 'foreigners' appear to be the Westerners who just recently entered the compound...

Reporters saw a cupboard filled with food — more than 20 bags of lentils and rice, cans of beans and cooking oil. For extended periods during the siege, the gunmen had said food was running low and those inside subsisted on one meal a day. Some said they had resorted to making soup from lemon leaves growing in the courtyard. It was not clear whether those accounts were misleading, or whether Israel sent in more food in the last days.

I'd believe the monks in this case, also when under a siege you ration - as in don't eat everything at once because you don't know when the siege will be lifted! Therefore it is reasonable to presume that alternative food sources such as lemon leaf soup were procured in order to extend the rations. When Stalingrad fell to the Russians, although the German soldiers had been starving for weeks - huge stockpiles of food still remained.

Israeli police and soldiers swept the church and said they found 40 explosive devices, several booby-trapped.

I tend to believe Bugs' version...

At the end of the day the 'evil Palestinian terrorist baby-eating scum' seemed very respectful of the religion and wellbeing of their hosts left the place surprisingly undamaged...

As for desecration etc. what about shooting people to death on holy ground!!??? Something that the Israelis were definitely guilty of!

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Natan

Has this right ever applied to armed men?

Yes, quite often.

Isn't the general custom to leave your weapons at the door?

Not if you're not sure the guys on the other side aren't going to rush you.

And does any country allow people wanted for crimes to stay in a Church based on this "right of sanctuary?"

Not indefinitely, usually. Provides a bit of an extra barrier to violent action, though. Natan, the only real terrorists in Canada's history were exiled, and some of them are back in Canada today as politicians. Israel will just have to deal with not being able to prosecute the guys it wanted to.

[Sirotnikov]

I had an interview with a teacher of mine. He is a leftist. A history teacher. He serves in the intelligence - field intelligence.

He was drafted when the operation started, and he served for several weeks in Bethlehem.

He was overseeing the whole territory from special locations.

He said that all fires in the compound generated from the inside.

[Ecthy]

this is not a troll, luv :-)

What about people in the church being shot by Israeli snipers? Were they attacking the ground forces or anything?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I had an interview with a teacher of mine. He is a leftist. A history teacher. He serves in the intelligence - field intelligence.

He was drafted when the operation started, and he served for several weeks in Bethlehem.

He was overseeing the whole territory from special locations.

He said that all fires in the compound generated from the inside.

Without disparaging the credentials of your teacher, I have to point out that burning part of the complex, and losing a potential stronghold as well as potentially endangering their own lives in the process (through spread of fire and by provoking storming action by the Israeli soldiers) makes no sense whatsoever.

Your teacher's intelligence credentials will back that up. Personally, I think it was entirely accidental and I'm not bothered as to which side goofed.

[History Guy]

The right of sanctuary was, I believe, abolished during the so-called "Age of Reason".

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Only legally. If people respect it, it can still be claimed as a right. Put it this way, the Israeli forces thought long and hard because of it.

[Sirotnikov]

They didn't light up places close to them. Only in the yard.
They did it every time they thought the Israelis would storm.

Why?

Because then it was immediately broadcasted live on the news, and Israel wouldn't storm the church while it's live on CNN.


The fire inside was probably a mistake.


As far as sniping goes, yes, they only shot at people who were either clearly armed, or shooting at them.

where there was no clear target, they refrained from shooting.

also, they had to clear with the command before shooting.

he said that while it's impossible to make sure that soldiers fired only by the rules, those were the rules, and they were made very clear all the time.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

They did shoot civilians as well, though.....

[Natan]

Only legally. If people respect it, it can still be claimed as a right. Put it this way, the Israeli forces thought long and hard because of it.

That wasn't the issue - the issue was that a firefight in a sacred church is really nasty, especially if you burn the whole thing down. I don't think Israel would have thought twice about going after suspected terrorists hiding in another Church or a Mosque.

[History Guy]

Maybe not. It'd figure these darn Palestinians would run into the Church of the Nativity to hide.

[Sirotnikov]

BFB - where? they targeted armed men. sometimes you miss.

i shot at targets from 150 feet using a carbine M16. It's tough to hit the target.


Also, when reporters and international forces reprot that IDF shot at them - they're saying nonsense.

IDF was shooting near them and over them, to try and make them go away. If we wanted to hit them, from such a short range - we would have.

[Sirotnikov]

Btw, he told me that IDF planned to take that church in advance, expecting such a thing. After all - it isn't a first time they flee into it.

But then IDF decided that conquering it would be a worse PR move.