Why was the USS Liberty where it was?

[gopher]

The USS Liberty was, at the outbreak of the war, at L0,L0 (Lat and Long 0-in the Gulf of Guinea) and proceeded to the ME at top speed. At Rota, she exchanged her Portugeese and French language experts for Arabic and Hebrew specialists. It was at that time that the JCS orderded Liberty to be between 12.5-20 miles of the coast of the Siani.
The Liberty had an American flag waving, as well as the huge letters GTR-5 written on the bow (General Technical Research-NSA's official title for the spy ships). Elint recordings on the UAR and Israel commenced immediatly.
A common theory on why Israel attacked the Liberty involves a town called El Arish, a place where both Israeli Journalist Gabi Bron and Israeli Military Historian Aryeh Yitzhaki witnessed the execution of as many as 1000 UAR/Eqyptian POWS by Israeli forces. Israeli govt officials were worried about an incident if this leaked out, and, allegedly, ordered the assault on Liberty, claiming she was an Egyptian freighter El Quseir, that was 1/2 the size, and could only go 5 knots, while the Liberty was making 30 trying to escape.
Body of Secrets-Chpt 7, & NSA DeCom transcripts- Umbra/TS

As the final irony, the torpedo boat that fired the first torpedo, Motor Torpedo Boat 203, is on display at the Naval Museum.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What Siro quotes from are official releases.

I quote things which quote some statements and official releases.

The USS Liberty looked nothing like the supposed Egyptian horse carrier. Furthermore, the flag, the antennae and the communication dishes obviously marked the ship as an American,

Proof?

I have the CIA and the US investigations on my side.

You have some conspiracy theory.

I quote again:

"A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. "

"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "

and the Israelis had been reconning the ship via aircraft for six hours before the flight.

Source?

You have to consider the context of the attack. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, and the Israelis were up to stuff about which they didn't want the Americans to know.

In that context you actually justify the attack....

Spying is wrong.

Israel has launched a surprise attack after Nasser accepted Soviet intelligence that Israel was planning an invasion of Syria (which it was).

Yes, we all know how reliable those russian sources are.

Israel launched a surprise attack because Nasser provoked Israel and mobilized it's army for war.

Nasser was lied to by the Soviets. Soviets aren't known for their integrity.

Nasser then lied to Abdullah of Jordan, telling him he was winning the war, and inviting him to join it. That telephone conversation was recorded by Israeli intelligence.

This is why Abdullah started attacking Israel, who decided that as long as it's winning, we might as well win on all fronts.


The attack on Syria was meant to achieve strategic control of the Golan Heights. Until 1967, Syria used the Golan Heights to shell northern Israeli towns, because of the height advantage.

Nasser ordered the UN troops off of Egyptian territory (it should be noted that Israel never allowed them on Israeli territory in the 1st place)

It was agreed to be a UN area, it doesn't matter under whose jurisdiction it was.

, and sent a couple of tank divisions to give Israel the message that they would not allow Israel to attack Syria.

Nice to know what you call "a couple".

Not only were they routed, but the Israelis attacked the retreating soldiers as they fled, ala the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait.

source?

By Day 2, both the UN and the US were demanding a cease fire.

You can't have Israel win, now can you

The attack on the Liberty (day 4) coincided with the attack on Syria, an escallation of a war the US was already demanding the Israelis cease. If the attack on the Liberty were a "tragic mistake" as some apologists would have it, why is it that the attack concentrated on the section of the ship that housed the electronics and communications gear of the ship, and why did they jam the radio of the ship.

Because that's normally the first part you target in an enemy vessel??

Were it an Egyptian ship, it would have had no one to call for help, since the Egyptian air force had been destroyed on the ground.

But the navy wasn't....

As a final show of Israeli humanity, when it appeared that the Liberty would have to be abandoned, the Israelis destroyed several life rafts.

Source?

According to the official sources, Israel brought it's air rescue units to save those who remained there.

A fact remains that most did survive.

The only explanation is that the Israelis wanted the Liberty out of communications long enough for them them to finish the job before the US could send help (the US actually sent help immediately, thinking it was a Soviet attack, but recalled the fighters upon learning that the attackers were Israeli).

So what exactly made the US to "forgive and forget" this attack?

Why US hasn't changed it's policy? We all know that the USA is no one's sucker.

Dean Rusk wrote, "I still do not know at what level in the Israeli governement the attacks were launched, but I am convinced that it was not trigger-happy local commanders."

Who's he?

I have more sources which are more important

The CIA Information report, "Attack on USS Liberty ordered by Dayan," Nov 7, 1967. Also, CIA Information Report, "Comment on the known identity of USS Liberty," July 27, 1967, "He [the source] was empahtic in stating ... that they [the Israelis] knew what kind of ship the Liberty was and what it was doing offshore."

"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "

Why didn't Johnson pound the crap out of the Israelis? Johnson apparetnly concluded that it would be unwise to criticize Israel while the American public was celebrating the Israeli triumph in the Six-Day War (it was seen as a reversal of the Holocaust). Also, he fealt it would be easier to convince the Israelis not to attack the Syrians.

What?

Israel already attacked the Syrians.... so the point is loom.

And the "i don't want to go against my people" arguement is weak.

Had he told the Americans what (you think that) happenned, they'd change their minds in a second.

[David Floyd]

"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "

Doesn't mean it was invisible during the first 2 assaults

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Doesn't mean it was invisible during the first 2 assaults

Isn't that what "not discernible" means?

[gopher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Proof?

Read my post!

I have the CIA and the US investigations on my side.

You have some conspiracy theory.

I quote again:

"A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. "

"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "

So during the 1st assualt the flag was still up? So why the hell did the Israelis attack her? Also, perhaps the airplanes could be mistaken, but what of the torpedo boats?

and the Israelis had been reconning the ship via aircraft for six hours before the flight.

Source?

Usually when you quote a report, you should read it all the way through

You have to consider the context of the attack. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, and the Israelis were up to stuff about which they didn't want the Americans to know.

In that context you actually justify the attack....

Spying is wrong.

Agreed! So stop trying to get Pollard free. And stop trying to steal our cruise missle tech

Nasser ordered the UN troops off of Egyptian territory (it should be noted that Israel never allowed them on Israeli territory in the 1st place)

It was agreed to be a UN area, it doesn't matter under whose jurisdiction it was.

, and sent a couple of tank divisions to give Israel the message that they would not allow Israel to attack Syria.

Nice to know what you call "a couple".

Not only were they routed, but the Israelis attacked the retreating soldiers as they fled, ala the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait.

source?

My last post has it.

Were it an Egyptian ship, it would have had no one to call for help, since the Egyptian air force had been destroyed on the ground.

But the navy wasn't....

As a final show of Israeli humanity, when it appeared that the Liberty would have to be abandoned, the Israelis destroyed several life rafts.

Source?

According to the official sources, Israel brought it's air rescue units to save those who remained there.

A fact remains that most did survive.

Excuse me? Where on Earth does ANYBODY show that Israeli Air force units actually helped with the rescue attempt or even communicate the error or coords to US forces? Well, then again, if Israel quickly sent word to the US about it, there goes the theory that the Israelis were mistaken. My bad. I guess you guys really thought this one through:

The only explanation is that the Israelis wanted the Liberty out of communications long enough for them them to finish the job before the US could send help (the US actually sent help immediately, thinking it was a Soviet attack, but recalled the fighters upon learning that the attackers were Israeli).

So what exactly made the US to "forgive and forget" this attack?

Why US hasn't changed it's policy? We all know that the USA is no one's sucker.

Do you really want the US to change it's policy? You really want to be even more of a pariah? Ask South Africa how it feels.

Dean Rusk wrote, "I still do not know at what level in the Israeli governement the attacks were launched, but I am convinced that it was not trigger-happy local commanders."

Who's he?

I have more sources which are more important

Point still stands. Why didn't you punish the pilot? Or anybody?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by gopher
A common theory on why Israel attacked the Liberty involves a town called El Arish, a place where both Israeli Journalist Gabi Bron and Israeli Military Historian Aryeh Yitzhaki witnessed the execution of as many as 1000 UAR/Eqyptian POWS by Israeli forces.

The only Israeli source I found about this, claimed that we reportedly killed some 250 people.

You quadroupled the number to 1000.

On BBC, an egyptian woman said it was 10,000s....


This is just like the "massacare" in Jenin. At first they claimed we slaughtered thousands indescriminently... Then hundreds...

Now they can't scrap together 100 dead. And most of those are combatants.

[TCO]

A lot of career naval officers and people with significant military experience (US secretary of State, JCS head, most of the top guys in LBJ administration other than McNamara, etc.) have said they think the attack was deliberate based on the nature of the attack (multiple platforms over several hours.) I don't put huge stock in McNamara. He has his own issues of credibility. See his retroactive look at the Viet Nam war (book) and compare to his performance in office.


How could the flag be limp if the ship was at 28 knots? (the explanation is not even consistent). FYI the ship was at 5 knots...

Also, the Holiday colors were placed up the flag pole during the fight (replacing the normal flag which was still intact but torn by the attack). Attakcs continued with the holiday colors hanging. "Holiday colors" is the sunday flag. It is bigger than the normal flag.

I agree that motive is the weakest part of the conspiracy theory. The one most often claimed relates to the siezure of the Golan Heights.

I don't think Israel is evil. But they've been caught lying before wrt various Mossad actions.

I don't think that the issue was properly investigated. From a technical standpoint of investigation. I have led JAG MAN investigations of mishaps at sea. If the issue were properly investigated and found to be a mistake, than I would happily trumpet that.

[Jaakko]

This doesn't look like a ship easily confused with others, especially with those big-ass letters on the bow...

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by gopher
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
So during the 1st assualt the flag was still up? So why the hell did the Israelis attack her? Also, perhaps the airplanes could be mistaken, but what of the torpedo boats?

The flag was not discernible!
It wasn't windy!

Usually when you quote a report, you should read it all the way through

1 - 0 for you

Agreed! So stop trying to get Pollard free. And stop trying to steal our cruise missle tech

We paid you for bombing your ship by accident.

Did you pay us for jailing polard by accident?

In anycase, Polard was a damn fool who bragged and couldn't keep his mouth shut.

I feel sorry for him, but he brought his jail onto himself.

And obviously since he was indeed guilty, and you did catch him, I think it's only reasonable that you keep him.

Excuse me? Where on Earth does ANYBODY show that Israeli Air force units actually helped with the rescue attempt or even communicate the error or coords to US forces?

Read my post:

Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty.

1- 1

Well, then again, if Israel quickly sent word to the US about it, there goes the theory that the Israelis were mistaken. My bad. I guess you guys really thought this one through:

How does that destroy that theory?

We were mistaken, and then we realized that, quickly trying to fix it.

Since when an acknowledgement of a mistake proves that it was intended?

Do you really want the US to change it's policy? You really want to be even more of a pariah? Ask South Africa how it feels.

It's not a question of wanting.

I'm simply stating that the arguements brought to explain why the US didn't change it's policy towards Israel, assuming it was obviously an intentional attack, are not believable.

Point still stands. Why didn't you punish the pilot? Or anybody?

Did you punish the US troops who shot at Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan recently?

Why not?

Because it was a freaking accident! Accidents happen!

I also remind you that :

Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GP
How could the flag be limp if the ship was at 28 knots? (the explanation is not even consistent). FYI the ship was at 5 knots...

That is indeed an interesting point.

Though it wasn't necessarily moving that fast when the planes were approaching. It was moving that fast on the sonar or something ...

Also, the Holiday colors were placed up the flag pole during the fight (replacing the normal flag which was still intact but torn by the attack). Attakcs continued with the holiday colors hanging. "Holiday colors" is the sunday flag. It is bigger than the normal flag.

You mean they put a bigger flag intentionally so our pilots could tell?

ok... interesting.

I agree that motive is the weakest part of the conspiracy theory. The one most often claimed relates to the siezure of the Golan Heights.

Which we eventaully did... so if our goal was to prevent the US from seeing it - we only caused more harm.

Look at it that way - now instead of one trouble, we had two!

1) US wittnessed Israel disobey it and attack Syria.
2) US wittnessed Israel attack it's own Ship.

Frankly, if both were true, I'd expect a very harsh change for the worse in US-Israeli relations.

I don't think Israel is evil. But they've been caught lying before wrt various Mossad actions.

Everyone lies about their covert operations.

That's what covert is all about.

I don't think that the issue was properly investigated. From a technical standpoint of investigation. I have led JAG MAN investigations of mishaps at sea. If the issue were properly investigated and found to be a mistake, than I would happily trumpet that.

What internet sources can you give me on the issue?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Jaakko
This doesn't look like a ship easily confused with others, especially with those big-ass letters on the bow...

Maybe to you, now.

I'm not sure that if I were a pilot, knowing about planes, not ships, I'd know the difference.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Jaakko

WHERE IS THE FLAG, WISEGUY?

[DinoDoc]

The Liberty doesn't even look like the El Quseir, Siro.





Furthermore until you can adequately explain how the attack could have occurred at 2pm., after 13 reconnaissaince over-flights, on a day totally devoid of cloud and while we were 13 1/2 miles out in international waters and last for more than two hours your story will not pass the smell test.

[Sirotnikov]

to me the ships look similar.

Seriously.

who said our pilots know something about ships?

or flags for that matter ?

[SpencerH]

A pilot attacking the ship is one thing, but given the subsequent involvement of the torpedo boats its unlikely that this was an accident. A question that strikes me is why was the attack not carried out to completion? The liberty was not sunk!

The motive is the thorniest issue. Lets not forget that Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan were not "shrinking violets". The Israelis have never shown any reluctance to act militarily and covertly against countries and persons they perceive to be threats (including the USA). I think its possible that the Israelis were reacting to the threat posed by the intelligence gathering operations with respect to their ability to pursue the 1967 war as they saw fit.